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It's literally just mobile devices. Specifically the introduction of the iPhone. Steve Jobs changed the world for the worse if he only knew. Rich kids can affor

It's literally just mobile devices. Specifically the introduction of the iPhone. Steve Jobs changed the world for the worse if he only knew. Rich kids can afford more mobile devices at a younger age, therefore suffer worse. I'm no luddite, mobile devices are amazingly useful, but their effect on people has not exactly been unmitigatedly positive.

itishappy 3y ago
The Hidden Brain podcast came to the same conclusion in the Escaping the Matrix episode featuring Jonathan Haidt. https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/escaping-the-matrix/ https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/escaping-the-matrix/ TL;DR: It's phones and social media. We're social creatures who rely on dynamic networks of diverse opinions, but social media perverts this. We build static networks affirming our own opinions and that leaves us afraid of the unknown. My favorite point Jonathan made is that if you look at the world as a whole, the spectrum of morality is actually incredibly diverse! Nobody sets out to build an evil ideology. Empires, caste systems, and communism were all built from moral foundations, even if their values are alien to us. In light of this, instead of asking why so much of the world looks backwards from an American liberal perspective (full disclosure: my perspective), a more interesting question is why American liberals adopt such a narrow view.
- redthrow 3y ago
  Tyler Cowen also did a podcast with Jonathan Haidt where he questioned Haidt's conclusion that the smartphone/social media are the cause of (some) younger people's poor mental health. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQoNd9oEeoI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQoNd9oEeoI (The discussion on Haidt's book "The Anxious Generation" starts at 13:08) Cowen also questioned Haidt's prescription about how social media companies and the government should regulate social media through (stricter) age verification etc.
neuralRiot 3y ago
It’s not the the medium itself or the message it carries, it’s the lack of emotional support that has been eroded for years now. It might sound cliché but in the end what every human wants is to be loved, even when teens and pre-teens want to reveal against parents and their rules and teachings they still need them. How can a teen learn and accept that possessions do not guarantee happiness when everyone they see looks happy and successful and their parents look and fight everyday for the same empty goals and they’re absent escaping reality on their devices too. Let kids be kids and teens be teens parents don’t need to be “cool” they need to be parents.
- space_oddity 3y ago
  Emotional support is crucial for individuals' overall well-being and development. Unfortunately, families capable of providing such support are extremely rare in practice.
- jimbokun 3y ago
  Phones and social media have replaced parents. Its' the reason there is less connection between kids and their parents, their peers, teachers, everyone.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 3y ago
    You’re really underselling the burden of labor in parent’s lives. Lucky enough to have two parents? They’re probably working 50-60 hours every week including unpaid time necessary for their jobs like commute, meal prep, unpaid breaks, etc. Most parents want to be more active and involved in their kids lives but material conditions get in the way. Blame shit economic policy and the greedy clowns that sold out America’s industrial base. Phones are an intellectually lazy excuse that ignores the facets that absolve parents of some of the responsibility you’re trying to heap on them. This is not to say that some parents are lazy and use screens as replacements for parenting; they exist but if you want to cast a net this wide - bring receipts.
    - sien 3y ago
      According to the stats parents now spend more time with their kids : From : https://www.prb.org/resources/do-parents-spend-enough-time-with-their-children https://www.prb.org/resources/do-parents-spend-enough-time-w... "Time diaries indicate that married fathers spent an average 6.5 hours a week caring for their children in 2000, a 153 percent increase since 1965. Married mothers spent 12.9 hours, a 21 percent increase. Single mothers spent 11.8 hours, a 57 percent increase."
      - Red_Leaves_Flyy 3y ago
        Caring is not necessarily bonding. Caring could be stuff like making meals or laundry.
robbiep 3y ago
Speaking as someone who started their medical career as these came to the masses (student 2010-2013, internship 2014) this absolutely reflects my experience on the coalface experiencing double digit increases in teenage suicidal ideation and self harm presentations to the emergency department.
hindsightbias 3y ago
HN would be the first to tell me Jobs didn't invent the smartphone. /s I could see conservatives blaming Obamaphones - making them accessible to all classes. I wonder how the Holden Caulfield's, Johnny Stabler's or the Over The Edge kids would have done with smartphones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_the_Edge_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_the_Edge_(film)
toofy 3y ago
i’ve said it before here, so apologies if you’ve already read it, but: > It’s literally just mobile devices. It’s probably very unlikely that it is “literally just” mobile devices. I agree that is probably one of the major contributing factors. But when we’re discussing a very large complicated human problem, it almost certainly is not “ literally just” one thing. If we want to accurately diagnose an issue so we can accurately address it, then we have to catch ourselves before we accidentally shut someone else down when they are very likely correct as well. Many of the issues we’re facing are fractal level depths of human problems which are a result of years of denying the problems existed. They will almost certainly require many levers being adjusted, not “Just” one. As I mentioned earlier, from my perspective, in addition to the GP comment, you’re likely also correct that mobile devices are a major source, I would add that it is almost certainly also unregulated social media companies, unchecked marketing, unregulated algorithms, and unchecked greed.
anon373839 3y ago
It’s so strange to go to public places and see very young children with headphones over their ears, and their faces joylessly glued to an iPad. There is no sign of curiosity or engagement with the outside world; it just can’t compete with apps that have literally been optimized for addiction with the aid of psychologists. This is very different from how children used to experience the world.

itishappy 3y ago

The Hidden Brain podcast came to the same conclusion in the Escaping the Matrix episode featuring Jonathan Haidt. https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/escaping-the-matrix/ https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/escaping-the-matrix/ TL;DR: It's phones and social media. We're social creatures who rely on dynamic networks of diverse opinions, but social media perverts this. We build static networks affirming our own opinions and that leaves us afraid of the unknown. My favorite point Jonathan made is that if you look at the world as a whole, the spectrum of morality is actually incredibly diverse! Nobody sets out to build an evil ideology. Empires, caste systems, and communism were all built from moral foundations, even if their values are alien to us. In light of this, instead of asking why so much of the world looks backwards from an American liberal perspective (full disclosure: my perspective), a more interesting question is why American liberals adopt such a narrow view.

redthrow 3y ago
Tyler Cowen also did a podcast with Jonathan Haidt where he questioned Haidt's conclusion that the smartphone/social media are the cause of (some) younger people's poor mental health. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQoNd9oEeoI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQoNd9oEeoI (The discussion on Haidt's book "The Anxious Generation" starts at 13:08) Cowen also questioned Haidt's prescription about how social media companies and the government should regulate social media through (stricter) age verification etc.

neuralRiot 3y ago

It’s not the the medium itself or the message it carries, it’s the lack of emotional support that has been eroded for years now. It might sound cliché but in the end what every human wants is to be loved, even when teens and pre-teens want to reveal against parents and their rules and teachings they still need them. How can a teen learn and accept that possessions do not guarantee happiness when everyone they see looks happy and successful and their parents look and fight everyday for the same empty goals and they’re absent escaping reality on their devices too. Let kids be kids and teens be teens parents don’t need to be “cool” they need to be parents.

space_oddity 3y ago
Emotional support is crucial for individuals' overall well-being and development. Unfortunately, families capable of providing such support are extremely rare in practice.
jimbokun 3y ago
Phones and social media have replaced parents. Its' the reason there is less connection between kids and their parents, their peers, teachers, everyone.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 3y ago
  You’re really underselling the burden of labor in parent’s lives. Lucky enough to have two parents? They’re probably working 50-60 hours every week including unpaid time necessary for their jobs like commute, meal prep, unpaid breaks, etc. Most parents want to be more active and involved in their kids lives but material conditions get in the way. Blame shit economic policy and the greedy clowns that sold out America’s industrial base. Phones are an intellectually lazy excuse that ignores the facets that absolve parents of some of the responsibility you’re trying to heap on them. This is not to say that some parents are lazy and use screens as replacements for parenting; they exist but if you want to cast a net this wide - bring receipts.
  - sien 3y ago
    According to the stats parents now spend more time with their kids : From : https://www.prb.org/resources/do-parents-spend-enough-time-with-their-children https://www.prb.org/resources/do-parents-spend-enough-time-w... "Time diaries indicate that married fathers spent an average 6.5 hours a week caring for their children in 2000, a 153 percent increase since 1965. Married mothers spent 12.9 hours, a 21 percent increase. Single mothers spent 11.8 hours, a 57 percent increase."
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 3y ago
      Caring is not necessarily bonding. Caring could be stuff like making meals or laundry.

robbiep 3y ago

Speaking as someone who started their medical career as these came to the masses (student 2010-2013, internship 2014) this absolutely reflects my experience on the coalface experiencing double digit increases in teenage suicidal ideation and self harm presentations to the emergency department.

hindsightbias 3y ago

HN would be the first to tell me Jobs didn't invent the smartphone. /s I could see conservatives blaming Obamaphones - making them accessible to all classes. I wonder how the Holden Caulfield's, Johnny Stabler's or the Over The Edge kids would have done with smartphones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_the_Edge_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_the_Edge_(film)

toofy 3y ago

i’ve said it before here, so apologies if you’ve already read it, but: > It’s literally just mobile devices. It’s probably very unlikely that it is “literally just” mobile devices. I agree that is probably one of the major contributing factors. But when we’re discussing a very large complicated human problem, it almost certainly is not “ literally just” one thing. If we want to accurately diagnose an issue so we can accurately address it, then we have to catch ourselves before we accidentally shut someone else down when they are very likely correct as well. Many of the issues we’re facing are fractal level depths of human problems which are a result of years of denying the problems existed. They will almost certainly require many levers being adjusted, not “Just” one. As I mentioned earlier, from my perspective, in addition to the GP comment, you’re likely also correct that mobile devices are a major source, I would add that it is almost certainly also unregulated social media companies, unchecked marketing, unregulated algorithms, and unchecked greed.

anon373839 3y ago

It’s so strange to go to public places and see very young children with headphones over their ears, and their faces joylessly glued to an iPad. There is no sign of curiosity or engagement with the outside world; it just can’t compete with apps that have literally been optimized for addiction with the aid of psychologists. This is very different from how children used to experience the world.