5 ms·

Is the NSA a secret funder of this project? I suppose having accurate bathymetric data might have business or scientific applications but the only immediate u

by mikece 3y ago

Is the NSA a secret funder of this project? I suppose having accurate bathymetric data might have business or scientific applications but the only immediate use that comes to mind is undersea warfare.

marsRoverDev 3y ago
I would put good money on the US Navy already having a map that is superior to this.
- mikece 3y ago
  For certain parts of the world it's more than a certainty -- I've seen them! (Before my computer career I was a navigator in the US Navy.) Where we don't yet have hyper-accurate bathymetric data there are boats like the USS Jimmy Carter which have lots of tricks and capabilities that we'll never learn about.
  - reaperman 3y ago
    Was this already public info? I feel weird about people sharing classified info on the forums I frequent. (Even information that I don’t agree should be classified)
    - crote 3y ago
      It's public knowledge that the US Navy has its own fleet of surveying vessels, concluding that they actually use them as well isn't much of a stretch.
      - vundercind 3y ago
        I’ve had no access to classified anything ever and could have told you the US navy has remarkably good maps of several key parts of the ocean in which friendly or enemy boomer subs are likely to operate. Like, of course they do. If there are any unusually-good ocean maps they have, it’s those, at least.
    - mikece 3y ago
      It's also public knowledge that the USS Jimmy Carter is a "very special" submarine. I have no direct knowledge of what it can do (I was a surface warfare type) but splicing into fiberoptic cables has been rumored many times by many sources.
      - colmmacc 3y ago
        "Blind Man's Bluff" is a great book about the work of espionage submarines and includes many anecdotes from other boats that were based at Kitsap. Tapping cables is definitely something that's been done through history, but more of the stories were about things like recovering the remains of enemy test missiles for physical intelligence. Now that that fiber traffic is routinely encrypted anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if more of USS Jimmy Carter's missions are recovering North Korean rockets.
      - wil421 3y ago
        A former Navy Seal heads the org I work in. He’s an expert in telecommunications and fiber tech. I’ve always wondered how he go the job and knows so much about telecom…especially fiber.
    - swarnie 3y ago
      You paid for it, why not?
  - maxglute 3y ago
    Without divulging anything, as a map enthusiast, are there any public images of maps submariners use to navigate? It is just like bathymetric/contour maps with similar notations? Do they look cool?
    - QuarterReptile 3y ago
      I'm going to hazard a guess, by your use of 'map' rather than 'chart', that you're not very familiar with nautical charts. A lot of what they do is chart depths, including broad contours which get more precise in shallower areas and closer to land (not always the same thing). Check out https://fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts.com/i-boating-fishing-web-app/fishing-marine-charts-navigation.html?title=English+Channel+-+Dover+Strait+%28Eastern+Part%29+boating+app#5.2/36.442/-67.572 https://fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts.com/i-boating-fishing-...
      - maxglute 3y ago
        Thanks, I've "enjoyed" nautical charts before, not for use, but the design. I just like seeing different kinds of maps/schematics and seeing their symbology or notation. Want to see something for submersible navigation, I imagine it's mostly countrs and depth indicators, but what about stuff like currents, thermocline layers, landmarks... like is there a big geologic underwater arch somewhere that subs pass under for shits and giggles. What do charts show subs that operate at 500m or vehicles designed to deeper. Things like that.
        QuarterReptile 3y ago
        What you're looking at there would suffice as source material whether your keel depth is 30ft or 300, and then many layers of planning happen atop it. > like is there a big geologic underwater arch somewhere that subs pass under for shits and giggles. I can't promise there's not, but most naval services have proud traditions of firing captains who are involved in collisions, allisions, and groundings.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
maxwell 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_sea_mining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_sea_mining
jjk166 3y ago
The main reason why these parts of the ocean are not mapped is because ships don't go there. In proximity to inhabited land and along seaways that ships regularly travel there are much better maps readily available. Not a lot of warfare is going to happen in a place where there are no assets to defend and no targets to attack and which isn't on the way to or from a location with either.
- rocqua 3y ago
  Those boring places would be great places to hide misske carrying subs no? And hence other subs might want to engage there.
  - jjk166 3y ago
    Not really. Ships moving in high shipping areas typically aren't carrying any type of submarine detection equipment, nonetheless relay such data to an adversary who could use it, so being in waters with traffic is not really an issue. In fact it helps. If there's nothing else man made for hundreds of miles in any direction, then anything that gives off a signature is dead giveaway you're hiding a sub there. In an area with some decent traffic, a propeller that's 1000 times quieter than a normal propeller is basically indistinguishable from background noise. Likewise it's not weird to find traces of soap or industrial lubricants along shipping lanes. At the same time the regular and predictable noises of other ships are useful for navigating by passive sonar so subs don't need to give away their position to navigate. There's also more to consider than just hiding. Navies have fleets. A surface fleet can deter anti-submarine warfare activities as well as conduct anti-submarine operations of their own. This both helps submarines to better hide and helps protect them if their stealth is for whatever reason compromised. If you have a surface fleet parked in the middle of nowhere, again it is a dead giveaway that there is something of interest there. Conversely there's no reason your adversary can't sail their surface ships there. If you are going to put your submarines somewhere remote, you want it to be a place where they are reasonably safe from surface assets, like under ice sheets. There are also the practical concerns that keep other ships from passing through these areas. Remote locations are difficult to get to, difficult to resupply, and far from port facilities which are critical for maintenance and upkeep. If you're 200 miles from port and there's a problem, you can be back in port in a matter of hours. If you're 2000 miles from port it may be a week before you get help. This translates into higher operating costs for your deterrent. I'm not saying that a sub would never traverse these waters, just that shifting strategy to focus on using remote locations to hide your missile subs has a lot of cons and limited pros.
ecommerceguy 3y ago
Google Earth, Formerly Keyhole EarthViewer, funded in large part by the CIA. https://www.businessinsider.com/the-cias-earthviewer-was-the-original-google-earth-2015-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/the-cias-earthviewer-was-the...
- sandworm101 3y ago
  Keyhole being a very old reference to the shape drawn on the earth by geostationary sat orbits.
  - adolph 3y ago
    The KH series of satellites were in low earth orbit, not geostationary. Where did you get the idea the keyhole name came from a shape? An NRO history has all early satellite reconnaissance as being under the “TALENT-KEYHOLE” designation: https://www.nro.gov/Portals/65/documents/foia/docs/HOSR/SC-2017-00006a.pdf https://www.nro.gov/Portals/65/documents/foia/docs/HOSR/SC-2...
    - sandworm101 3y ago
      https://ar.inspiredpencil.com/pictures-2023/geosynchronous-orbit-ground-track https://ar.inspiredpencil.com/pictures-2023/geosynchronous-o... Many geosync orbits trace an asymmetrical 8 on the ground that looks like a keyhole. That's where the name comes from, from programs older than the TK sats.
      - adolph 3y ago
        > from programs older than the TK sats. What was that older than Corona?
      - ianburrell 3y ago
        Keyhole reconnaissance satellites predate geostationary satellites. Geostationary reconnaissance satellites are rare, and not like Keyhole ones.
      - 3y ago

by mikece 3y ago

marsRoverDev 3y ago

I would put good money on the US Navy already having a map that is superior to this.

mikece 3y ago
For certain parts of the world it's more than a certainty -- I've seen them! (Before my computer career I was a navigator in the US Navy.) Where we don't yet have hyper-accurate bathymetric data there are boats like the USS Jimmy Carter which have lots of tricks and capabilities that we'll never learn about.
- reaperman 3y ago
  Was this already public info? I feel weird about people sharing classified info on the forums I frequent. (Even information that I don’t agree should be classified)
  - crote 3y ago
    It's public knowledge that the US Navy has its own fleet of surveying vessels, concluding that they actually use them as well isn't much of a stretch.
    - vundercind 3y ago
      I’ve had no access to classified anything ever and could have told you the US navy has remarkably good maps of several key parts of the ocean in which friendly or enemy boomer subs are likely to operate. Like, of course they do. If there are any unusually-good ocean maps they have, it’s those, at least.
  - mikece 3y ago
    It's also public knowledge that the USS Jimmy Carter is a "very special" submarine. I have no direct knowledge of what it can do (I was a surface warfare type) but splicing into fiberoptic cables has been rumored many times by many sources.
    - colmmacc 3y ago
      "Blind Man's Bluff" is a great book about the work of espionage submarines and includes many anecdotes from other boats that were based at Kitsap. Tapping cables is definitely something that's been done through history, but more of the stories were about things like recovering the remains of enemy test missiles for physical intelligence. Now that that fiber traffic is routinely encrypted anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if more of USS Jimmy Carter's missions are recovering North Korean rockets.
    - wil421 3y ago
      A former Navy Seal heads the org I work in. He’s an expert in telecommunications and fiber tech. I’ve always wondered how he go the job and knows so much about telecom…especially fiber.
  - swarnie 3y ago
    You paid for it, why not?
- maxglute 3y ago
  Without divulging anything, as a map enthusiast, are there any public images of maps submariners use to navigate? It is just like bathymetric/contour maps with similar notations? Do they look cool?
  - QuarterReptile 3y ago
    I'm going to hazard a guess, by your use of 'map' rather than 'chart', that you're not very familiar with nautical charts. A lot of what they do is chart depths, including broad contours which get more precise in shallower areas and closer to land (not always the same thing). Check out https://fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts.com/i-boating-fishing-web-app/fishing-marine-charts-navigation.html?title=English+Channel+-+Dover+Strait+%28Eastern+Part%29+boating+app#5.2/36.442/-67.572 https://fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts.com/i-boating-fishing-...
    - maxglute 3y ago
      Thanks, I've "enjoyed" nautical charts before, not for use, but the design. I just like seeing different kinds of maps/schematics and seeing their symbology or notation. Want to see something for submersible navigation, I imagine it's mostly countrs and depth indicators, but what about stuff like currents, thermocline layers, landmarks... like is there a big geologic underwater arch somewhere that subs pass under for shits and giggles. What do charts show subs that operate at 500m or vehicles designed to deeper. Things like that.
      - QuarterReptile 3y ago
        What you're looking at there would suffice as source material whether your keel depth is 30ft or 300, and then many layers of planning happen atop it. > like is there a big geologic underwater arch somewhere that subs pass under for shits and giggles. I can't promise there's not, but most naval services have proud traditions of firing captains who are involved in collisions, allisions, and groundings.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

maxwell 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_sea_mining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_sea_mining

jjk166 3y ago

The main reason why these parts of the ocean are not mapped is because ships don't go there. In proximity to inhabited land and along seaways that ships regularly travel there are much better maps readily available. Not a lot of warfare is going to happen in a place where there are no assets to defend and no targets to attack and which isn't on the way to or from a location with either.

rocqua 3y ago
Those boring places would be great places to hide misske carrying subs no? And hence other subs might want to engage there.
- jjk166 3y ago
  Not really. Ships moving in high shipping areas typically aren't carrying any type of submarine detection equipment, nonetheless relay such data to an adversary who could use it, so being in waters with traffic is not really an issue. In fact it helps. If there's nothing else man made for hundreds of miles in any direction, then anything that gives off a signature is dead giveaway you're hiding a sub there. In an area with some decent traffic, a propeller that's 1000 times quieter than a normal propeller is basically indistinguishable from background noise. Likewise it's not weird to find traces of soap or industrial lubricants along shipping lanes. At the same time the regular and predictable noises of other ships are useful for navigating by passive sonar so subs don't need to give away their position to navigate. There's also more to consider than just hiding. Navies have fleets. A surface fleet can deter anti-submarine warfare activities as well as conduct anti-submarine operations of their own. This both helps submarines to better hide and helps protect them if their stealth is for whatever reason compromised. If you have a surface fleet parked in the middle of nowhere, again it is a dead giveaway that there is something of interest there. Conversely there's no reason your adversary can't sail their surface ships there. If you are going to put your submarines somewhere remote, you want it to be a place where they are reasonably safe from surface assets, like under ice sheets. There are also the practical concerns that keep other ships from passing through these areas. Remote locations are difficult to get to, difficult to resupply, and far from port facilities which are critical for maintenance and upkeep. If you're 200 miles from port and there's a problem, you can be back in port in a matter of hours. If you're 2000 miles from port it may be a week before you get help. This translates into higher operating costs for your deterrent. I'm not saying that a sub would never traverse these waters, just that shifting strategy to focus on using remote locations to hide your missile subs has a lot of cons and limited pros.

ecommerceguy 3y ago

Google Earth, Formerly Keyhole EarthViewer, funded in large part by the CIA. https://www.businessinsider.com/the-cias-earthviewer-was-the-original-google-earth-2015-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/the-cias-earthviewer-was-the...

sandworm101 3y ago
Keyhole being a very old reference to the shape drawn on the earth by geostationary sat orbits.
- adolph 3y ago
  The KH series of satellites were in low earth orbit, not geostationary. Where did you get the idea the keyhole name came from a shape? An NRO history has all early satellite reconnaissance as being under the “TALENT-KEYHOLE” designation: https://www.nro.gov/Portals/65/documents/foia/docs/HOSR/SC-2017-00006a.pdf https://www.nro.gov/Portals/65/documents/foia/docs/HOSR/SC-2...
  - sandworm101 3y ago
    https://ar.inspiredpencil.com/pictures-2023/geosynchronous-orbit-ground-track https://ar.inspiredpencil.com/pictures-2023/geosynchronous-o... Many geosync orbits trace an asymmetrical 8 on the ground that looks like a keyhole. That's where the name comes from, from programs older than the TK sats.
    - adolph 3y ago
      > from programs older than the TK sats. What was that older than Corona?
    - ianburrell 3y ago
      Keyhole reconnaissance satellites predate geostationary satellites. Geostationary reconnaissance satellites are rare, and not like Keyhole ones.
    - 3y ago