6 ms·

Fascinating that you can see "underpaid" and "fair" wages as political myths but not "unskilled labor."

by 6E696365 3y ago

tbrownaw 3y ago
Are you saying that "unskilled labor" is like the other two in just being spin on "I don't approve of market forces"?
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  To me its funny that those who always talk about unskilled labour are the same who don’t have a driving licence, nor know how to make an omelette
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - hackernewds 3y ago
    What skills are required to drive, walk or bike a delivery to make $30+tips/hr in NYC? I don't think they literally mean "unskilled" vs "something that can be learned within a month".
    - lnxg33k1 3y ago
      Where are all these js devs on minimum wage going paycheck-to-paycheck? I think everything is easy, given the right approach and mindset, or everything is approachable given the right approach and mindset and will to put enough effort to get to a given outcome.
  - Almondsetat 3y ago
    Do you have any statistics on that?
gruez 3y ago
The concept of "underpaid" and "fair" wages is fundamentally subjective. Is a burger flipper underpaid because he cant raise a family a buy a house on that wage, "underpaid"? Or is his labor simply not that valuable? Is a techbro making $300k "underpaid" because his employer is making $500k off his work? On the other hand skilled vs unskilled labor, as well as the concept of human capital are well recognized concepts in economics.
- uolmir 3y ago
  Ah yes, the famously objective field of economics.
  - gruez 3y ago
    Are you suggesting that the difference in skill level between a burger flipper and an accountant is purely subjective?
    - account-5 3y ago
      Since that depends on the burger flipper, I'd say yes. Gordon Ramsay would likely agree.
      - gruez 3y ago
        That's just playing with words. Putting Gordon Ramsay in the same bucket as "burger flipper" makes as much sense as putting Linus Torvalds in the same bucket as "keyboard monkey".
        account-5 3y ago
        Perspective actually. And what you perceive to be value.
        gruez 3y ago
        Why are you pivoting to "value"? The original discussion was about skilled vs unskilled labor and whether that assessment is subjective vs objective. You might think that accountants are useless paper pushers whereas burger flippers are Hard Working People That Get Actual Things Done™, but that's orthogonal to how much skill[1] is needed to flip burgers vs be an accountant. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill_(labor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill_(labor)
Aloisius 3y ago
Unskilled labor simply refers to jobs where any specialized skills required can be learned on the job in a short period of time, usually less than 30 days. It doesn't literally mean the workers don't know how to do anything. It's certainly not a myth - it's a classification of work, at least in the US. https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/416/416-0968.htm https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/416/416-0968.htm
- account-5 3y ago
  > Unskilled labor simply refers to jobs where any specialized skills required can be learned on the job in a short period of time, usually less than 30 days. This is nearly all jobs.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    > This is nearly all jobs. All unskilled labor jobs. You're not going to learn welding in 30 days. Nor are you going to learn how to design a bridge. Or program in C++. Or diagnose a patient. Or be a lawyer. Or drive a race car. Etc.
    - account-5 3y ago
      I didn't say all jobs, did I? You successfully listed (some) jobs that might take longer than 30 days to learn. The thing about "unskilled" jobs, everyone seems to look down their noses at, is that they facilite the people doing the lofty jobs of: lawyer, doctor, c++ programmer, etc. Without them getting done for you you couldn't do what you're doing. Can the brickie work without their "unskilled" laborer? Sure, but good luck getting you house built in a reasonable time.
      - Shaanie 3y ago
        I don't understand your point. Yes, there's a lot of unskilled jobs, possibly a majority of jobs. Far from everyone looks down on unskilled jobs, and nobody is saying they're not important.
      - 3y ago
WalterBright 3y ago
The local Starbucks over the years has had many turnovers in the staff. It usually takes about 3 days for a new worker to learn the job. That makes it unskilled labor. Skilled labor is something like welding, where it can take a year to get good at it. Or things that require calculus, which take 4 years of specialized training to even get an entry job at it. Or flying an airplane - you can't just flip through the instruction booklet and fly an airplane.
- cammikebrown 3y ago
  How could you possibly know that it takes “3 days” to get good at being a barista? You should try it out sometime, with a 50 person line. I’m sure it’ll be a cake walk and your labor will be fairly compensated. I’ll even give you a 3 day head start just to be fair!
  - hnbad 3y ago
    They likely meant that onboarding takes three days. As there is no meaningful metric for competence beyond that (or at least no metric that is measured and used) "good" doesn't apply. There are of course tons of ways a good, seasoned barista distinguishes themselves from a trainee with 3 days of onboarding but those are externalities. The difference between skilled and unskilled labor is not whether competence and experience can make a difference but whether that difference is measured as performance or only affects externalities. I.e. "unskilled labor" is not about the worker but about the company. Notably these often do involve skill that directly contributes to performance but because the job is considered unskilled, it's instead treated as some nebulous a priori form of intelligence and personal aptitude. What's more, beyond a certain point skill is often actively punished (e.g. by raising quotas to take advantage of higher productivity, resulting in more work for the same pay).
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      > They likely meant that onboarding takes three days. You can onboard welding in less than 30 days too. > As there is no meaningful metric for competence beyond that (or at least no metric that is measured and used) "good" doesn't apply. Barista quality isn't much harder to measure than weld quality. "and used" is a cop-out.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Fascinating that you can see "underpaid" and "fair" wages as political myths but not "unskilled labor."

tbrownaw 3y ago

Are you saying that "unskilled labor" is like the other two in just being spin on "I don't approve of market forces"?

lnxg33k1 3y ago
To me its funny that those who always talk about unskilled labour are the same who don’t have a driving licence, nor know how to make an omelette
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- hackernewds 3y ago
  What skills are required to drive, walk or bike a delivery to make $30+tips/hr in NYC? I don't think they literally mean "unskilled" vs "something that can be learned within a month".
  - lnxg33k1 3y ago
    Where are all these js devs on minimum wage going paycheck-to-paycheck? I think everything is easy, given the right approach and mindset, or everything is approachable given the right approach and mindset and will to put enough effort to get to a given outcome.
- Almondsetat 3y ago
  Do you have any statistics on that?

gruez 3y ago

The concept of "underpaid" and "fair" wages is fundamentally subjective. Is a burger flipper underpaid because he cant raise a family a buy a house on that wage, "underpaid"? Or is his labor simply not that valuable? Is a techbro making $300k "underpaid" because his employer is making $500k off his work? On the other hand skilled vs unskilled labor, as well as the concept of human capital are well recognized concepts in economics.

uolmir 3y ago
Ah yes, the famously objective field of economics.
- gruez 3y ago
  Are you suggesting that the difference in skill level between a burger flipper and an accountant is purely subjective?
  - account-5 3y ago
    Since that depends on the burger flipper, I'd say yes. Gordon Ramsay would likely agree.
    - gruez 3y ago
      That's just playing with words. Putting Gordon Ramsay in the same bucket as "burger flipper" makes as much sense as putting Linus Torvalds in the same bucket as "keyboard monkey".
      - account-5 3y ago
        Perspective actually. And what you perceive to be value.
        gruez 3y ago
        Why are you pivoting to "value"? The original discussion was about skilled vs unskilled labor and whether that assessment is subjective vs objective. You might think that accountants are useless paper pushers whereas burger flippers are Hard Working People That Get Actual Things Done™, but that's orthogonal to how much skill[1] is needed to flip burgers vs be an accountant. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill_(labor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill_(labor)

Aloisius 3y ago

Unskilled labor simply refers to jobs where any specialized skills required can be learned on the job in a short period of time, usually less than 30 days. It doesn't literally mean the workers don't know how to do anything. It's certainly not a myth - it's a classification of work, at least in the US. https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/416/416-0968.htm https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/416/416-0968.htm

account-5 3y ago
> Unskilled labor simply refers to jobs where any specialized skills required can be learned on the job in a short period of time, usually less than 30 days. This is nearly all jobs.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  > This is nearly all jobs. All unskilled labor jobs. You're not going to learn welding in 30 days. Nor are you going to learn how to design a bridge. Or program in C++. Or diagnose a patient. Or be a lawyer. Or drive a race car. Etc.
  - account-5 3y ago
    I didn't say all jobs, did I? You successfully listed (some) jobs that might take longer than 30 days to learn. The thing about "unskilled" jobs, everyone seems to look down their noses at, is that they facilite the people doing the lofty jobs of: lawyer, doctor, c++ programmer, etc. Without them getting done for you you couldn't do what you're doing. Can the brickie work without their "unskilled" laborer? Sure, but good luck getting you house built in a reasonable time.
    - Shaanie 3y ago
      I don't understand your point. Yes, there's a lot of unskilled jobs, possibly a majority of jobs. Far from everyone looks down on unskilled jobs, and nobody is saying they're not important.
    - 3y ago

WalterBright 3y ago

The local Starbucks over the years has had many turnovers in the staff. It usually takes about 3 days for a new worker to learn the job. That makes it unskilled labor. Skilled labor is something like welding, where it can take a year to get good at it. Or things that require calculus, which take 4 years of specialized training to even get an entry job at it. Or flying an airplane - you can't just flip through the instruction booklet and fly an airplane.

cammikebrown 3y ago
How could you possibly know that it takes “3 days” to get good at being a barista? You should try it out sometime, with a 50 person line. I’m sure it’ll be a cake walk and your labor will be fairly compensated. I’ll even give you a 3 day head start just to be fair!
- hnbad 3y ago
  They likely meant that onboarding takes three days. As there is no meaningful metric for competence beyond that (or at least no metric that is measured and used) "good" doesn't apply. There are of course tons of ways a good, seasoned barista distinguishes themselves from a trainee with 3 days of onboarding but those are externalities. The difference between skilled and unskilled labor is not whether competence and experience can make a difference but whether that difference is measured as performance or only affects externalities. I.e. "unskilled labor" is not about the worker but about the company. Notably these often do involve skill that directly contributes to performance but because the job is considered unskilled, it's instead treated as some nebulous a priori form of intelligence and personal aptitude. What's more, beyond a certain point skill is often actively punished (e.g. by raising quotas to take advantage of higher productivity, resulting in more work for the same pay).
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    > They likely meant that onboarding takes three days. You can onboard welding in less than 30 days too. > As there is no meaningful metric for competence beyond that (or at least no metric that is measured and used) "good" doesn't apply. Barista quality isn't much harder to measure than weld quality. "and used" is a cop-out.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]