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Tone policing isn’t a valid argument. [1] It’s also perfectly valid to raise a problem without providing a solution. [2] As it so happens, though, Strong Town

Tone policing isn’t a valid argument. [1] It’s also perfectly valid to raise a problem without providing a solution. [2] As it so happens, though, Strong Towns’ thesis is pretty clear. This article is one of many examples. It boils down to “low density costs cities more than it brings in revenue, so cities need to increase density or increase taxes. If they don’t, they’ll eventually fail.” They have several articles going into specific recommendations, which you can find collected at [3]. I particularly liked “6 Principles for Building a Strong Town.” [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing [2] https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/22212/is-there-an-onus-on-the-critic-to-provide-an-alternative-solution https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/22212/is-ther... [3] https://actionlab.strongtowns.org/hc/en-us/articles/360053865212-The-Strong-Towns-Approach-Top-Content https://actionlab.strongtowns.org/hc/en-us/articles/36005386...

nocoiner 3y ago
New York seems like a pretty obvious counterexample to that prescription, though. High density, high taxes - so should be the ideal city, no? But according to this very article, New York’s finances are even worse off than Houston’s! Does that imply that every American city is destined to fail? My overall impression from this piece was that someone really wanted to get something off his chest about cash accounting and unfunded liabilities. Lots of sound and fury around those topics but seemed pretty skimpy otherwise (and not terribly well informed about the facts on the ground in the specific example employed here). Btw, I’ve got to imagine that I’m perfectly within my rights to object to the particular tone an advocacy piece employs and/or the solutions it proposes (or does not), and to find that piece more or less credible based on those factors. Not sure why you are linking me to wiki and stackexchange articles?
- jdlshore 3y ago
  They discuss New York in a short segment of this video (linked to timestamp): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nChhkHpkD0Y&t=945s&pp=2AGxB5ACAQ%3D%3D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nChhkHpkD0Y&t=945s&pp=2AGxB5... You are, of course, within your rights to object to an article’s tone, just as I’m within my rights to tell you why I find it to be a poor form of argument.
ViktorRay 3y ago
Your “tone policing” comment isn’t relevant here. The OP wasn’t saying the argument is wrong because of the tone. He was just criticizing the tone of the argument in of itself. And in general if you’re trying to persuade people being strident and confrontational is not the best approach. That approach seems better if you’re trying to rile up people who already agree with you or if you are trying to antagonize people into arguing against you. If someone wants to actually persuade it’s better to present the argument in a calm rational way. Also your Wikipedia article is bizzare. Presenting arguments in a calm rational way is “colonialist”? It makes a bizarre assumption that polite discourse is inherently European which it isn’t. Discussion and speaking arguments in a detached, educated, and rational tone has been going in in Africa, South Asia, and East Asia and other places for thousands of years!
- jdlshore 3y ago
  > If someone wants to actually persuade it’s better to present the argument in a calm rational way. That’s one of those “works better in theory than in practice” positions. In a perfect world, sure, people are persuaded by calm, rational argument. That’s why politicians and advertisers avoid emotional appeals, right?
nradov 3y ago
The actual economic data doesn't support the Strong Towns thesis. If they were correct then we would be seeing spikes in Chapter 9 bankruptcies and muni bond insurance rates. That isn't happening. Strong Towns is largely just making things up and cherry picking data to push a biased political narrative.

nocoiner 3y ago

New York seems like a pretty obvious counterexample to that prescription, though. High density, high taxes - so should be the ideal city, no? But according to this very article, New York’s finances are even worse off than Houston’s! Does that imply that every American city is destined to fail? My overall impression from this piece was that someone really wanted to get something off his chest about cash accounting and unfunded liabilities. Lots of sound and fury around those topics but seemed pretty skimpy otherwise (and not terribly well informed about the facts on the ground in the specific example employed here). Btw, I’ve got to imagine that I’m perfectly within my rights to object to the particular tone an advocacy piece employs and/or the solutions it proposes (or does not), and to find that piece more or less credible based on those factors. Not sure why you are linking me to wiki and stackexchange articles?

jdlshore 3y ago
They discuss New York in a short segment of this video (linked to timestamp): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nChhkHpkD0Y&t=945s&pp=2AGxB5ACAQ%3D%3D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nChhkHpkD0Y&t=945s&pp=2AGxB5... You are, of course, within your rights to object to an article’s tone, just as I’m within my rights to tell you why I find it to be a poor form of argument.

ViktorRay 3y ago

Your “tone policing” comment isn’t relevant here. The OP wasn’t saying the argument is wrong because of the tone. He was just criticizing the tone of the argument in of itself. And in general if you’re trying to persuade people being strident and confrontational is not the best approach. That approach seems better if you’re trying to rile up people who already agree with you or if you are trying to antagonize people into arguing against you. If someone wants to actually persuade it’s better to present the argument in a calm rational way. Also your Wikipedia article is bizzare. Presenting arguments in a calm rational way is “colonialist”? It makes a bizarre assumption that polite discourse is inherently European which it isn’t. Discussion and speaking arguments in a detached, educated, and rational tone has been going in in Africa, South Asia, and East Asia and other places for thousands of years!

jdlshore 3y ago
> If someone wants to actually persuade it’s better to present the argument in a calm rational way. That’s one of those “works better in theory than in practice” positions. In a perfect world, sure, people are persuaded by calm, rational argument. That’s why politicians and advertisers avoid emotional appeals, right?

nradov 3y ago

The actual economic data doesn't support the Strong Towns thesis. If they were correct then we would be seeing spikes in Chapter 9 bankruptcies and muni bond insurance rates. That isn't happening. Strong Towns is largely just making things up and cherry picking data to push a biased political narrative.