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The ban on plastic grocery bags has always felt silly to me when you can still walk out of the store with a 24 pack of bottled water, or candy where every indiv

The ban on plastic grocery bags has always felt silly to me when you can still walk out of the store with a 24 pack of bottled water, or candy where every individual piece is wrapped in plastic. And there's probably examples like that in every aisle.

dieselgate 3y ago
Or banning plastic straws but still using plastic lids on the same drink.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  If we think plastic is bad then wouldn't banning any of it be better than banning none of it? Wouldn't the answer be to ban more, not less? What's wrong with incremental improvements? We don't have to hit a home run on our first try.
  - dieselgate 3y ago
    I Don’t disagree with you at all but it’s ironic at the least. Certain items become hot button and people have trouble seeing the full picture
  - agallant 3y ago
    If it truly worked as a series of incremental improvements, and considered total carbon footprint (transportation costs etc.), then sure. Those are two pretty big "ifs" - people can be inclined to satisfice and pat themselves on the back for having done some minor symbolic thing, and then not go deeper. And it's much easier to sacrifice plastic straws than question whether your "bucket list" should really have a ton of carbon intensive global travel.
    - ehnto 3y ago
      Straws were also banned because of their immediate impact on ocean life, the same reason we got rid of plastic ring 6 pack can holders. Animals get them lodged in their bodies.
      - bzzzt 3y ago
        Most ocean plastic comes from the western world and is exported to poorer countries where corrupt companies promise to 'deal' with it which means dumping it into the ocean. It's not the straws that are the problem, but the policy that makes it possible to export trash and look the other way.
        ssl-3 3y ago
        The sum of this, I think, is that it would be better for the oceans if we landfilled plastics instead of sending them off to be not-recycled. All we need is a seemingly copacetic catch phrase to bring the ocean-dumping not-recyclers into the light. "Scamcycling"?
        ehnto 3y ago
        Agreed except that not everywhere can landfill, so tightening up global trash agreements still makes sense.
        ehnto 3y ago
        I wholeheartedly agree. I also don't see any problem with banning the straws in the first place, and I hope it is just the beginning of plastic items we ban.
- euroderf 3y ago
  FWIW... non-plastic straws in EU are great. For one thing, they are larger diameter than the plastic ones they replace, so a fast food milkshake is actually drinkable. (Too much seaweed.)
- triceratops 3y ago
  I don't understand the endless bellyaching about plastic straws. Is everyone so bad at drinking that they can't drink out of the cup? Toddlers or people in hospitals perhaps need straws but what's everyone else's excuse?
Varriount 3y ago
Beware of the Nirvana fallacy! While banning plastic bags isn't perfect by any means, it's at least a start.
- ThunderSizzle 3y ago
  Banning platic bags is like banning plastic straws - it's wasting effort to piss people off on something that barely affects platic usage. If platic reduction is that important, the primary goal should be the primary platic consumption, not useful tools to normal people that maybe contributes 1-2% and will end up pissing people off. The green movement is really bad at convincing people because they ignore private jets for politicians that cause more environmental damage than any lifetime consumption of plastic straws ever would. The hypocrisy is unconvincing.
  - arctangos 3y ago
    I work in the, "green movement." Since this movement is almost entirely volunteer driven, it is not typically well positioned to coordinate actions or balance tradeoffs. For example, the people working on banning plastic bags are typically concerned about bags stuck in trees and rivers or preventing soil permeability, not carbon emissions. If one were to ask plastic straw or bag ban volunteers to go work on something else, they just... wouldn't. This would be different with employees but with volunteers there are rarely significant tradeoffs to consider. A search engine would show that there this movement is not ignoring private jets. [1] Lastly, perhaps this is not true of the parent commenter, but a last thing I'll note is that many people seem to believe that the, "green movement," is somehow powerful or well financed. This could not be farther from the truth. The money most environmental orgs brings in from donations is dwarfed by what those same donors pay for gasoline, red meat, and other environmentally harmful products. Some percentage of these purchases is then funneled to fighting the causes that they just donated to. (Dear child commenters, I'm not shaming you for eating meat or buying gas. I also live in a society...) That’s the, "green movement." We're out-gunned, under-financed, and, due to those constraints, almost impossible to coordinate. I personally am currently struggling to figure out how to afford per-seat pricing of password managers for my team of 5-10 hr/week volunteers. THAT is the level of shoestring budget that this movement is on. Perhaps it’s counter-intuitive, but if you’d like to see a more coordinated environmental movement capable of weighing tradeoffs and focusing on big issues over plastic straw bans, I’d suggest donating, not just once, but repeatedly. Otherwise, the fundamental dynamics of volunteer based orgs just won’t change. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=environmentalists+block+jets https://www.google.com/search?q=environmentalists+block+jets
ehnto 3y ago
Yes thousands of examples in every grocery store. It is still crazy to me, since the answer for so many of them is just a cardboard box or paper wrapper. We have the technology. Paper has it's downsides too, but they are surmountable. Plastic has no path forward at this stage. Recycling and incineration are not ideal for plastic, and you can't trust the general population with that task anyway. Recycling is a cop out for big corps to keep pushing plastic into the environment. We need their products to live, but only they can choose to stop using plastic. Voting with our wallets is hampered by the reduced comptition from corporate amalgamation of staple grocery companies. You can't call it a capital M monopoly, but the effect seems to be the same. The evidence is on the store shelves, even though the public clearly wants less plastic, no change.
flgb 3y ago
So how would you start phasing out plastic?
- cchi_co 3y ago
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cchi_co 3y ago
[dead]

dieselgate 3y ago

Or banning plastic straws but still using plastic lids on the same drink.

arcticbull 3y ago
If we think plastic is bad then wouldn't banning any of it be better than banning none of it? Wouldn't the answer be to ban more, not less? What's wrong with incremental improvements? We don't have to hit a home run on our first try.
- dieselgate 3y ago
  I Don’t disagree with you at all but it’s ironic at the least. Certain items become hot button and people have trouble seeing the full picture
- agallant 3y ago
  If it truly worked as a series of incremental improvements, and considered total carbon footprint (transportation costs etc.), then sure. Those are two pretty big "ifs" - people can be inclined to satisfice and pat themselves on the back for having done some minor symbolic thing, and then not go deeper. And it's much easier to sacrifice plastic straws than question whether your "bucket list" should really have a ton of carbon intensive global travel.
  - ehnto 3y ago
    Straws were also banned because of their immediate impact on ocean life, the same reason we got rid of plastic ring 6 pack can holders. Animals get them lodged in their bodies.
    - bzzzt 3y ago
      Most ocean plastic comes from the western world and is exported to poorer countries where corrupt companies promise to 'deal' with it which means dumping it into the ocean. It's not the straws that are the problem, but the policy that makes it possible to export trash and look the other way.
      - ssl-3 3y ago
        The sum of this, I think, is that it would be better for the oceans if we landfilled plastics instead of sending them off to be not-recycled. All we need is a seemingly copacetic catch phrase to bring the ocean-dumping not-recyclers into the light. "Scamcycling"?
        ehnto 3y ago
        Agreed except that not everywhere can landfill, so tightening up global trash agreements still makes sense.
      - ehnto 3y ago
        I wholeheartedly agree. I also don't see any problem with banning the straws in the first place, and I hope it is just the beginning of plastic items we ban.
euroderf 3y ago
FWIW... non-plastic straws in EU are great. For one thing, they are larger diameter than the plastic ones they replace, so a fast food milkshake is actually drinkable. (Too much seaweed.)
triceratops 3y ago
I don't understand the endless bellyaching about plastic straws. Is everyone so bad at drinking that they can't drink out of the cup? Toddlers or people in hospitals perhaps need straws but what's everyone else's excuse?

Varriount 3y ago

Beware of the Nirvana fallacy! While banning plastic bags isn't perfect by any means, it's at least a start.

ThunderSizzle 3y ago
Banning platic bags is like banning plastic straws - it's wasting effort to piss people off on something that barely affects platic usage. If platic reduction is that important, the primary goal should be the primary platic consumption, not useful tools to normal people that maybe contributes 1-2% and will end up pissing people off. The green movement is really bad at convincing people because they ignore private jets for politicians that cause more environmental damage than any lifetime consumption of plastic straws ever would. The hypocrisy is unconvincing.
- arctangos 3y ago
  I work in the, "green movement." Since this movement is almost entirely volunteer driven, it is not typically well positioned to coordinate actions or balance tradeoffs. For example, the people working on banning plastic bags are typically concerned about bags stuck in trees and rivers or preventing soil permeability, not carbon emissions. If one were to ask plastic straw or bag ban volunteers to go work on something else, they just... wouldn't. This would be different with employees but with volunteers there are rarely significant tradeoffs to consider. A search engine would show that there this movement is not ignoring private jets. [1] Lastly, perhaps this is not true of the parent commenter, but a last thing I'll note is that many people seem to believe that the, "green movement," is somehow powerful or well financed. This could not be farther from the truth. The money most environmental orgs brings in from donations is dwarfed by what those same donors pay for gasoline, red meat, and other environmentally harmful products. Some percentage of these purchases is then funneled to fighting the causes that they just donated to. (Dear child commenters, I'm not shaming you for eating meat or buying gas. I also live in a society...) That’s the, "green movement." We're out-gunned, under-financed, and, due to those constraints, almost impossible to coordinate. I personally am currently struggling to figure out how to afford per-seat pricing of password managers for my team of 5-10 hr/week volunteers. THAT is the level of shoestring budget that this movement is on. Perhaps it’s counter-intuitive, but if you’d like to see a more coordinated environmental movement capable of weighing tradeoffs and focusing on big issues over plastic straw bans, I’d suggest donating, not just once, but repeatedly. Otherwise, the fundamental dynamics of volunteer based orgs just won’t change. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=environmentalists+block+jets https://www.google.com/search?q=environmentalists+block+jets

ehnto 3y ago

Yes thousands of examples in every grocery store. It is still crazy to me, since the answer for so many of them is just a cardboard box or paper wrapper. We have the technology. Paper has it's downsides too, but they are surmountable. Plastic has no path forward at this stage. Recycling and incineration are not ideal for plastic, and you can't trust the general population with that task anyway. Recycling is a cop out for big corps to keep pushing plastic into the environment. We need their products to live, but only they can choose to stop using plastic. Voting with our wallets is hampered by the reduced comptition from corporate amalgamation of staple grocery companies. You can't call it a capital M monopoly, but the effect seems to be the same. The evidence is on the store shelves, even though the public clearly wants less plastic, no change.

flgb 3y ago

So how would you start phasing out plastic?

cchi_co 3y ago
[dead]

cchi_co 3y ago

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