5 ms·

Havana Syndrome. So what is it exactly? Nobody really knows, nor do we know what causes it. So called "anomolous health incidents" Are they caused by pesticid

Havana Syndrome. So what is it exactly? Nobody really knows, nor do we know what causes it. So called "anomolous health incidents" Are they caused by pesticides, toxins, ultrasound, microwave weapons? Are the Russians behind this? Or maybe it's psychogenic in nature? >in 2022, psychogenic explanations became predominant, for several reasons: no known weapons that could cause only the reported symptoms, no evidence of hostile attacks, the spread to numerous unrelated locations, and absence of damage to brain or body.[20][4][21] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome

tedivm 3y ago
This article mentions multiple people with traumatic brain injuries, backed up by neurosurgeons. That isn't psychogenic, that's is pretty physical. The article even addresses that. > There is a reason why the Havana Act only came into force in 2021: for the past eight years, Havana Syndrome has been the subject of intense controversy. Sociologists have suggested it is little more than a mass psychogenic illness, or perhaps the outbreak of mass hysteria. Such arguments have been undercut by multiple medical studies, including one conducted by an expert panel convened by the U.S. intelligence community. The final assessment of that investigation found that AHIs had “a unique combination of core characteristics that cannot be explained by known environmental or medical conditions and could be due to external stimuli.”
- MattGaiser 3y ago
  The traumatic brain injuries part is disputed. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/havana-syndrome-nih-study-1.7147124 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/havana-syndrome-nih-study-1.71... US intelligence community says they are there, the NIH does not seem to agree. The NIH doesn't dispute a possible weapon, just that there is visible brain damage.
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    I know nothing, at all, and am probably trivially wrong. But their symptoms remind me vaguely of concussions in the NFL, and my understanding is, there is no way to find out if someone has CTE until after they're dead. So I find it somewhat distasteful that the NIH brain scans were/are cited as a proof one way or the other. I'm probably completely wrong on a possible hidden injury, and the "cited as proof" I'm complaining about is almost certainly that it was dryly included in a report, that they tried some scans, that didn't have any positive results: and that, of course, is the right tone and absolutely should be included in the report.
    - lostlogin 3y ago
      > So I find it somewhat distasteful that the NIH brain scans were/are cited as a proof one way or the other. What the scans were matters too. Eg an MRI brain might be ‘normal’, but would a scan targeting the inner ear? A report from an MR looking for evidence of Meniere’s would be interesting.
dmix 3y ago
[flagged]
- purpleidea 3y ago
  > Long COVID Most long COVID is likely not psychogenic.
- hilbertseries 3y ago
  The page you linked on gulf war syndrome talks about how it's a real condition and not psychosomatic.
  - dmix 3y ago
    Plenty of things can be a “real condition” without measurable physical sources. That’s just practical/pragmatic medicine. Ala chronic fatigue syndrome. The difference between those and more fringe stuff like chronic Lyme disease is much more of a grey area than most doctors would ever admit publicly without a huge amount of well organized backlash that largely can be summarized on “you just don’t care about sick people”. So the alternative is much more palatable to just to quietly treat them, play the game by kicking the can and deferring with “I hope science will one day advance to finding a real cause”. Wikipedia is always going to play this same game by the nature of it being a public forum attempting to appease a wide audience, it’s almost always going to play it safe. Ultimately these are people, for the most part, who are legitimately unwell and may legitimately need care regardless, but that doesn’t make it the same as having cancer or HIV. Nor does it mean going to a doctor will give you the medicine you need.
- areoform 3y ago
  The point you are making about mass hysteria is appreciated, but often patients really do suffer from something that turns out to be real. I am a "Havana syndrome" skeptic, but I do think the other examples are cut from a different cloth. The first two examples that you've cited are great. Those people were dismissed at the time — only for scientists to find evidence decades later after many deaths. re: gulf war syndrome > Studies have consistently indicated that Persian Gulf War syndrome is not the result of combat or other stressors and that Gulf War veterans have lower rates of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) than veterans of other wars. > In 2022, researchers led by Robert Haley, MD at University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center found that exposure to sarin nerve gas in soldiers who had a particular genetic mutation that prevented them from breaking down the nerve gas is likely to be responsible for the syndrome.[18] The findings and an editorial by two leading epidemiologists were published in Environmental Health Perspectives.[19] re: 9/11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_arising_from_the_September_11_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_arising_from_th... > More people have died from illnesses caused by 9/11 than during the attack itself.[3][4] > Much of the thousands of tons of debris resulting from the collapse of the Twin Towers was pulverized concrete, which is known to cause silicosis upon inhalation. The remainder consisted of more than 2,500 contaminants,[7] more specifically: 50% non-fibrous material and construction debris; 40% glass and other fibers; 9.2% cellulose; and 0.8% of the extremely toxic carcinogen asbestos, as well as detectable amounts of lead and mercury.[8] There were also unprecedented levels of dioxins and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) from the fires which burned for three months.[9] Many of the dispersed substances (asbestos, crystalline silica, lead, cadmium, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) are carcinogenic; other substances can trigger kidney, heart, liver and nervous system deterioration
mytailorisrich 3y ago
We are told that no-one really knows what it is or what causes it. We, the public, cannot tell whether this is actually true.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
> Greg Edgreen, a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army, set up the working group investigating Havana Syndrome for the Defense Intelligence Agency, or DIA, from 2020 to 2023. The role gave him access to classified intelligence compiled not just by the Pentagon, but by other agencies within the U.S. intelligence community. In response to this investigation, Edgreen told 60 Minutes: “If I'm wrong about Russia being behind anomalous health incidents, I will come onto your show. And I will eat my tie.”
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  From the article, Edgreen's opinion seems to be based off of everyone reporting the syndrome having some tenuous connection to Russia, which is fairly terrible evidence. Maybe he has a better reason for believing it, I can't guess. And that DIA investigation was presumably part of the House Intelligence Committee's assessment that ruled there was no credible evidenced of an attack.
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    Is it tenuous evidence when Russian agents were photographed at the scene? Clumsy moves like this are a hallmark of Russian operations, for example, the UK poisonings.
    - boomboomsubban 3y ago
      I seem to have missed these photographs, but "Russian spies found to be in the same cities as US spies" doesn't seem like some huge bombshell.
  - kthejoker2 3y ago
    > Maybe he has a better reason for believing it, I can't guess. Did you even read what you responded to? He absolutely has "better reasons" for believing it.
    - boomboomsubban 3y ago

tedivm 3y ago

This article mentions multiple people with traumatic brain injuries, backed up by neurosurgeons. That isn't psychogenic, that's is pretty physical. The article even addresses that. > There is a reason why the Havana Act only came into force in 2021: for the past eight years, Havana Syndrome has been the subject of intense controversy. Sociologists have suggested it is little more than a mass psychogenic illness, or perhaps the outbreak of mass hysteria. Such arguments have been undercut by multiple medical studies, including one conducted by an expert panel convened by the U.S. intelligence community. The final assessment of that investigation found that AHIs had “a unique combination of core characteristics that cannot be explained by known environmental or medical conditions and could be due to external stimuli.”

MattGaiser 3y ago
The traumatic brain injuries part is disputed. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/havana-syndrome-nih-study-1.7147124 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/havana-syndrome-nih-study-1.71... US intelligence community says they are there, the NIH does not seem to agree. The NIH doesn't dispute a possible weapon, just that there is visible brain damage.
- refulgentis 3y ago
  I know nothing, at all, and am probably trivially wrong. But their symptoms remind me vaguely of concussions in the NFL, and my understanding is, there is no way to find out if someone has CTE until after they're dead. So I find it somewhat distasteful that the NIH brain scans were/are cited as a proof one way or the other. I'm probably completely wrong on a possible hidden injury, and the "cited as proof" I'm complaining about is almost certainly that it was dryly included in a report, that they tried some scans, that didn't have any positive results: and that, of course, is the right tone and absolutely should be included in the report.
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    > So I find it somewhat distasteful that the NIH brain scans were/are cited as a proof one way or the other. What the scans were matters too. Eg an MRI brain might be ‘normal’, but would a scan targeting the inner ear? A report from an MR looking for evidence of Meniere’s would be interesting.

dmix 3y ago

[flagged]

purpleidea 3y ago
> Long COVID Most long COVID is likely not psychogenic.
hilbertseries 3y ago
The page you linked on gulf war syndrome talks about how it's a real condition and not psychosomatic.
- dmix 3y ago
  Plenty of things can be a “real condition” without measurable physical sources. That’s just practical/pragmatic medicine. Ala chronic fatigue syndrome. The difference between those and more fringe stuff like chronic Lyme disease is much more of a grey area than most doctors would ever admit publicly without a huge amount of well organized backlash that largely can be summarized on “you just don’t care about sick people”. So the alternative is much more palatable to just to quietly treat them, play the game by kicking the can and deferring with “I hope science will one day advance to finding a real cause”. Wikipedia is always going to play this same game by the nature of it being a public forum attempting to appease a wide audience, it’s almost always going to play it safe. Ultimately these are people, for the most part, who are legitimately unwell and may legitimately need care regardless, but that doesn’t make it the same as having cancer or HIV. Nor does it mean going to a doctor will give you the medicine you need.
areoform 3y ago
The point you are making about mass hysteria is appreciated, but often patients really do suffer from something that turns out to be real. I am a "Havana syndrome" skeptic, but I do think the other examples are cut from a different cloth. The first two examples that you've cited are great. Those people were dismissed at the time — only for scientists to find evidence decades later after many deaths. re: gulf war syndrome > Studies have consistently indicated that Persian Gulf War syndrome is not the result of combat or other stressors and that Gulf War veterans have lower rates of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) than veterans of other wars. > In 2022, researchers led by Robert Haley, MD at University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center found that exposure to sarin nerve gas in soldiers who had a particular genetic mutation that prevented them from breaking down the nerve gas is likely to be responsible for the syndrome.[18] The findings and an editorial by two leading epidemiologists were published in Environmental Health Perspectives.[19] re: 9/11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_arising_from_the_September_11_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_arising_from_th... > More people have died from illnesses caused by 9/11 than during the attack itself.[3][4] > Much of the thousands of tons of debris resulting from the collapse of the Twin Towers was pulverized concrete, which is known to cause silicosis upon inhalation. The remainder consisted of more than 2,500 contaminants,[7] more specifically: 50% non-fibrous material and construction debris; 40% glass and other fibers; 9.2% cellulose; and 0.8% of the extremely toxic carcinogen asbestos, as well as detectable amounts of lead and mercury.[8] There were also unprecedented levels of dioxins and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) from the fires which burned for three months.[9] Many of the dispersed substances (asbestos, crystalline silica, lead, cadmium, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) are carcinogenic; other substances can trigger kidney, heart, liver and nervous system deterioration

mytailorisrich 3y ago

We are told that no-one really knows what it is or what causes it. We, the public, cannot tell whether this is actually true.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

> Greg Edgreen, a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army, set up the working group investigating Havana Syndrome for the Defense Intelligence Agency, or DIA, from 2020 to 2023. The role gave him access to classified intelligence compiled not just by the Pentagon, but by other agencies within the U.S. intelligence community. In response to this investigation, Edgreen told 60 Minutes: “If I'm wrong about Russia being behind anomalous health incidents, I will come onto your show. And I will eat my tie.”

boomboomsubban 3y ago
From the article, Edgreen's opinion seems to be based off of everyone reporting the syndrome having some tenuous connection to Russia, which is fairly terrible evidence. Maybe he has a better reason for believing it, I can't guess. And that DIA investigation was presumably part of the House Intelligence Committee's assessment that ruled there was no credible evidenced of an attack.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  Is it tenuous evidence when Russian agents were photographed at the scene? Clumsy moves like this are a hallmark of Russian operations, for example, the UK poisonings.
  - boomboomsubban 3y ago
    I seem to have missed these photographs, but "Russian spies found to be in the same cities as US spies" doesn't seem like some huge bombshell.
- kthejoker2 3y ago
  > Maybe he has a better reason for believing it, I can't guess. Did you even read what you responded to? He absolutely has "better reasons" for believing it.
  - boomboomsubban 3y ago