4 ms·

Most states trying to loosen standards are just trying to get in line with federal regulations (from their already more-stringent state standards) which are mos

Most states trying to loosen standards are just trying to get in line with federal regulations (from their already more-stringent state standards) which are mostly minor changes like allowing minors to serve alcohol or work an extra two hours a day. On the other hand, the media is constantly driving this idea home that there are no jobs for young people, so it's kind of hard to know which side of their ass they're talking out of. What I do know is if you look at the data we have since COVID, young men have been dropping out of high school and college in record numbers in order to work to support their families out of necessity. Inflation has crushed a lot of poor and middle class people. If regulators and rich liberals really want to save the children, they should get a handle on supply chains and pricing of basic necessities so that young people don't have to choose between feeding themselves/their families and their education.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Rising wages due to labor shortages is likely more effective in quality of life increases in the face of elevated prices versus allowing children to work longer and more risky jobs. But conservatives are somewhat allergic to labor having any power or wage increases, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. As long as there is enough anti-immigrant sentiment that keeps immigration subdued (versus Canada’s “open doors, citizen economics around housing and wages be damned”), the problem works itself out eventually with structural demographics and a compressing working age labor force. The world is getting old fast; bad for capitalistic heavy socioeconomic systems (which relies heavily on surplus or under compensated labor), good for people who must exist in the labor market. https://www.un.org/development/desa/en/news/population/our-world-is-growing-older.html https://www.un.org/development/desa/en/news/population/our-w... https://hbr.org/2022/11/the-global-population-is-aging-is-your-business-prepared https://hbr.org/2022/11/the-global-population-is-aging-is-yo... https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/Series/Analytical-Series/aging-is-the-real-population-bomb-bloom-zucker https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/Series/Anal...
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  But this ignores the fact that if wages rise too much, the product or service the company sells may become uneconomic. I literally have seen people complain about how "the man" is trying to keep wages down while at the same time bitching that their fast food meal costs $11 dollars. I guarantee many of these small business owners of places like restaurants are not exactly raking in the dough (in most cases a software engineer with like 5+ years of experience can make more money with less risk). I make a good living but I've noticed myself eating out less because it's tough for me to stomach a $100+ per person bill at even a reasonable (i.e. not super fancy) restaurant.
  - busterarm 3y ago
    McDonalds has literally written into their quarterly filings that people who make below $40k/yr can't even afford to eat at their restaurants anymore and that their pricing (driven largely by rising wages) has moved their customer demographic up-market.
    - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      Thanks for that tidbit, I didn't know that. Totally agree. I always used to think of McDonald's as about as "cheap but gets the job done", now I think of it as "not-that-cheap and I can get the job done better at home".
  - verall 3y ago
    > tough for me to stomach a $100+ per person bill at even a reasonable (i.e. not super fancy) restaurant food has gotten more expensive but it's not that expensive. $25 entrees is unaffordable for most people, how are you getting to $100/head at reasonable restaurants? Does everyone order the ribeye?
    - dinkumthinkum 3y ago
      $100 a person at reasonable restaurants? lol. I guess one way to win arguments is to just make things up. Send links to the online menus please.
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
> On the other hand, the media is constantly driving this idea home that there are no jobs for young people I have no idea what you're talking about. Where I live I constantly see articles about worker shortages in low wage roles like restaurant workers and retail that have typically been the main jobs for teenagers.
- busterarm 3y ago
  LMGTFY https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/06/why-so-few-teenagers-have-jobs-anymore.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/06/why-so-few-teenagers-have-jo... https://www.epi.org/publication/young-workers-covid-recession/ https://www.epi.org/publication/young-workers-covid-recessio... https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/24/wearying-and-depressing-ill-young-people-tell-why-work-is-not-an-option https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/24/wearying-and... https://www.quora.com/Why-do-young-people-not-find-work https://www.quora.com/Why-do-young-people-not-find-work https://www.reddit.com/r/Adulting/comments/18k394x/the_economy_needs_young_workers_to_thrive_yet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Adulting/comments/18k394x/the_econo... https://www.brookings.edu/articles/good-jobs-are-out-of-reach-for-many-20-somethings-in-the-u-s/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/good-jobs-are-out-of-reac...
  - jryle70 3y ago
    The media also reported these: https://www.abc.org/News-Media/News-Releases/abc-2024-construction-workforce-shortage-tops-half-a-million https://www.abc.org/News-Media/News-Releases/abc-2024-constr... https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/11/06/worker-shortages-ease-some-industries/71444033007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/11/06/worker-short... https://www.kornferry.com/insights/this-week-in-leadership/talent-crunch-future-of-work https://www.kornferry.com/insights/this-week-in-leadership/t... I don't vouch for any of these articles, am just saying labor shortage has been a persistent narrative, so not sure what your point is?
    - djbusby 3y ago
      Labor shortage as a persistent narrative is at least 200 years old. How long is this shortage gonna last?
AnarchismIsCool 3y ago
https://www.statista.com/statistics/247407/average-annual-consumer-spending-in-the-us-by-type/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/247407/average-annual-co... It's not even basic necessities (food, healthcare, misc bills), it's that the median person is spending an overwhelming fraction of their take home income on housing. Supply chains will bounce around and settle (though there's work to do there), but we've created so much bad regulation around just building places to live that they're a goddamn investment vehicle instead of a human right. If we cut housing costs in half they'd still be absurd but suddenly everyone would have an insane amount of financial flexibility relative to where they are.
- busterarm 3y ago
  Housing isn't a basic necessity? Seems like the most basic, to me.
  - AnarchismIsCool 3y ago
    You're right, but semantics aside, the examples you gave seemed to be leaning towards production of goods whereas housing is more of a financial system and regulatory issue.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Rising wages due to labor shortages is likely more effective in quality of life increases in the face of elevated prices versus allowing children to work longer and more risky jobs. But conservatives are somewhat allergic to labor having any power or wage increases, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. As long as there is enough anti-immigrant sentiment that keeps immigration subdued (versus Canada’s “open doors, citizen economics around housing and wages be damned”), the problem works itself out eventually with structural demographics and a compressing working age labor force. The world is getting old fast; bad for capitalistic heavy socioeconomic systems (which relies heavily on surplus or under compensated labor), good for people who must exist in the labor market. https://www.un.org/development/desa/en/news/population/our-world-is-growing-older.html https://www.un.org/development/desa/en/news/population/our-w... https://hbr.org/2022/11/the-global-population-is-aging-is-your-business-prepared https://hbr.org/2022/11/the-global-population-is-aging-is-yo... https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/Series/Analytical-Series/aging-is-the-real-population-bomb-bloom-zucker https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/Series/Anal...

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
But this ignores the fact that if wages rise too much, the product or service the company sells may become uneconomic. I literally have seen people complain about how "the man" is trying to keep wages down while at the same time bitching that their fast food meal costs $11 dollars. I guarantee many of these small business owners of places like restaurants are not exactly raking in the dough (in most cases a software engineer with like 5+ years of experience can make more money with less risk). I make a good living but I've noticed myself eating out less because it's tough for me to stomach a $100+ per person bill at even a reasonable (i.e. not super fancy) restaurant.
- busterarm 3y ago
  McDonalds has literally written into their quarterly filings that people who make below $40k/yr can't even afford to eat at their restaurants anymore and that their pricing (driven largely by rising wages) has moved their customer demographic up-market.
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    Thanks for that tidbit, I didn't know that. Totally agree. I always used to think of McDonald's as about as "cheap but gets the job done", now I think of it as "not-that-cheap and I can get the job done better at home".
- verall 3y ago
  > tough for me to stomach a $100+ per person bill at even a reasonable (i.e. not super fancy) restaurant food has gotten more expensive but it's not that expensive. $25 entrees is unaffordable for most people, how are you getting to $100/head at reasonable restaurants? Does everyone order the ribeye?
  - dinkumthinkum 3y ago
    $100 a person at reasonable restaurants? lol. I guess one way to win arguments is to just make things up. Send links to the online menus please.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

> On the other hand, the media is constantly driving this idea home that there are no jobs for young people I have no idea what you're talking about. Where I live I constantly see articles about worker shortages in low wage roles like restaurant workers and retail that have typically been the main jobs for teenagers.

busterarm 3y ago
LMGTFY https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/06/why-so-few-teenagers-have-jobs-anymore.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/06/why-so-few-teenagers-have-jo... https://www.epi.org/publication/young-workers-covid-recession/ https://www.epi.org/publication/young-workers-covid-recessio... https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/24/wearying-and-depressing-ill-young-people-tell-why-work-is-not-an-option https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/24/wearying-and... https://www.quora.com/Why-do-young-people-not-find-work https://www.quora.com/Why-do-young-people-not-find-work https://www.reddit.com/r/Adulting/comments/18k394x/the_economy_needs_young_workers_to_thrive_yet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Adulting/comments/18k394x/the_econo... https://www.brookings.edu/articles/good-jobs-are-out-of-reach-for-many-20-somethings-in-the-u-s/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/good-jobs-are-out-of-reac...
- jryle70 3y ago
  The media also reported these: https://www.abc.org/News-Media/News-Releases/abc-2024-construction-workforce-shortage-tops-half-a-million https://www.abc.org/News-Media/News-Releases/abc-2024-constr... https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/11/06/worker-shortages-ease-some-industries/71444033007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/11/06/worker-short... https://www.kornferry.com/insights/this-week-in-leadership/talent-crunch-future-of-work https://www.kornferry.com/insights/this-week-in-leadership/t... I don't vouch for any of these articles, am just saying labor shortage has been a persistent narrative, so not sure what your point is?
  - djbusby 3y ago
    Labor shortage as a persistent narrative is at least 200 years old. How long is this shortage gonna last?

AnarchismIsCool 3y ago

https://www.statista.com/statistics/247407/average-annual-consumer-spending-in-the-us-by-type/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/247407/average-annual-co... It's not even basic necessities (food, healthcare, misc bills), it's that the median person is spending an overwhelming fraction of their take home income on housing. Supply chains will bounce around and settle (though there's work to do there), but we've created so much bad regulation around just building places to live that they're a goddamn investment vehicle instead of a human right. If we cut housing costs in half they'd still be absurd but suddenly everyone would have an insane amount of financial flexibility relative to where they are.

busterarm 3y ago
Housing isn't a basic necessity? Seems like the most basic, to me.
- AnarchismIsCool 3y ago
  You're right, but semantics aside, the examples you gave seemed to be leaning towards production of goods whereas housing is more of a financial system and regulatory issue.