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I was always suspicious of all the 4-factor personality tests I was exposed to in the corporate world because it seemed to me they were glossy but not very help

I was always suspicious of all the 4-factor personality tests I was exposed to in the corporate world because it seemed to me they were glossy but not very helpful. Then I found out about OCEAN and realized the 4 factor tests were always avoiding the only one that mattered: Neuroticism. (Openness, Conscientiousness, Extraversion, Agreeableness, Neuroticism) https://www.thelifedoctor.org/the-narcissist-s-prayer https://www.thelifedoctor.org/the-narcissist-s-prayer While it is unlikely that the uncoachable are full blown narcissists, those employees probably need a lot of counseling to overcome whatever life experiences that taught them corrective feedback is a personal attack.

refulgentis 3y ago
The jump from Neuroticism to Narcissist confused me. I'm a bit wary of anything touching on narcissism, there was a big jump in people who loved talking about their narcissist ex the past 2-3 years. (the cousins of body language doctors via true crime YouTube)
- graemep 3y ago
  > The jump from Neuroticism to Narcissist confused me. Me too > I'm a bit wary of anything touching on narcissism, there was a big jump in people who loved talking about their narcissist ex the past 2-3 years. The term narcissist maybe overused, but a lot of us also learned to recognise it in recent years. It is a fairly common behaviour, and people can have narcissistic traits without having clinical NPD. Just because some people claim their ex was narcissistic without adequate justification, that does not mean there are not also many who are right when they say it. I think being forced into being confined with people during lockdowns also made people realise what they were putting up with. Because it is so different from how reasonable people behave, and it is associated with abusive behaviour, it can be hard to figure out what is going on. A bigger problem IMO is the overuse of "gaslighting" which dilutes its meaning and makes it harder to clearly describe the actual behaviour.
  - ambicapter 3y ago
    > a lot of us also learned to recognise it in recent years [Citation Needed] What triggered this large-scale awakening?
- readthenotes1 3y ago
  Try giving corrective direction to a narcissist and see how emotionally stable they are...
andrewflnr 3y ago
Weird that you'd say neuroticism is the "only one that mattered". I'm more inclined to believe that for conscientiousness. I gather it's strongly correlated with life outcomes.
- readthenotes1 3y ago
  The remark was in the context of getting along with your teammates, which is why we went through those personality models in the first place. Assuming we are avoiding extreme lack of conscientiousness, it is much easier to have the conversation with someone who has better emotional stability so that we can decide whether they can modify their natural inclinations.
riehwvfbk 3y ago
Many neurotic people know they (we) are neurotic and are working on it (getting counseling, meditating, etc). However, there is a genetic component to it, and despite their best efforts to manage the traits they will always more neurotic than the average bear. But what's truly ironic is that some of this neuroticism is justified: we are in fact perceived negatively and organizations are in fact trying not to hire or get rid of us. And so our employment is only as good as our ability to mask. Which, as you might imagine, does not make it easier to not be neurotic.
- caseyy 3y ago
  It seems to me like neuroticism isn’t fixed in people. Perhaps there are genetic predispositions, but it seems to me like it can be learned at certain stages in life, and later unlearned as a set of behaviors.
  - riehwvfbk 3y ago
    Yes, therapy helps tremendously. Just as with everything, there is a base system and then a set of overrides programmed in the brain, which is why we can override a fight-or-flight response and don't scurry away from any shadow like an insect does. However, there is research to suggest that neurotic people have more active amygdala than average. So yes, we can override our panic, and yes, we can learn to do it better, but there is a gotcha: all these overrides tend to fail at the most inopportune moment. And that is when already overwhelmed by stress.

refulgentis 3y ago

The jump from Neuroticism to Narcissist confused me. I'm a bit wary of anything touching on narcissism, there was a big jump in people who loved talking about their narcissist ex the past 2-3 years. (the cousins of body language doctors via true crime YouTube)

graemep 3y ago
> The jump from Neuroticism to Narcissist confused me. Me too > I'm a bit wary of anything touching on narcissism, there was a big jump in people who loved talking about their narcissist ex the past 2-3 years. The term narcissist maybe overused, but a lot of us also learned to recognise it in recent years. It is a fairly common behaviour, and people can have narcissistic traits without having clinical NPD. Just because some people claim their ex was narcissistic without adequate justification, that does not mean there are not also many who are right when they say it. I think being forced into being confined with people during lockdowns also made people realise what they were putting up with. Because it is so different from how reasonable people behave, and it is associated with abusive behaviour, it can be hard to figure out what is going on. A bigger problem IMO is the overuse of "gaslighting" which dilutes its meaning and makes it harder to clearly describe the actual behaviour.
- ambicapter 3y ago
  > a lot of us also learned to recognise it in recent years [Citation Needed] What triggered this large-scale awakening?
readthenotes1 3y ago
Try giving corrective direction to a narcissist and see how emotionally stable they are...

andrewflnr 3y ago

Weird that you'd say neuroticism is the "only one that mattered". I'm more inclined to believe that for conscientiousness. I gather it's strongly correlated with life outcomes.

readthenotes1 3y ago
The remark was in the context of getting along with your teammates, which is why we went through those personality models in the first place. Assuming we are avoiding extreme lack of conscientiousness, it is much easier to have the conversation with someone who has better emotional stability so that we can decide whether they can modify their natural inclinations.

riehwvfbk 3y ago

Many neurotic people know they (we) are neurotic and are working on it (getting counseling, meditating, etc). However, there is a genetic component to it, and despite their best efforts to manage the traits they will always more neurotic than the average bear. But what's truly ironic is that some of this neuroticism is justified: we are in fact perceived negatively and organizations are in fact trying not to hire or get rid of us. And so our employment is only as good as our ability to mask. Which, as you might imagine, does not make it easier to not be neurotic.

caseyy 3y ago
It seems to me like neuroticism isn’t fixed in people. Perhaps there are genetic predispositions, but it seems to me like it can be learned at certain stages in life, and later unlearned as a set of behaviors.
- riehwvfbk 3y ago
  Yes, therapy helps tremendously. Just as with everything, there is a base system and then a set of overrides programmed in the brain, which is why we can override a fight-or-flight response and don't scurry away from any shadow like an insect does. However, there is research to suggest that neurotic people have more active amygdala than average. So yes, we can override our panic, and yes, we can learn to do it better, but there is a gotcha: all these overrides tend to fail at the most inopportune moment. And that is when already overwhelmed by stress.