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They do say that reality has a left leaning bias... Personally I find these quadrant visualizations a bit misleading (regardless of where you sit) because the "

by epgui 3y ago

They do say that reality has a left leaning bias... Personally I find these quadrant visualizations a bit misleading (regardless of where you sit) because the "centre" is not so much a neutral point as it is the centre of the "Overton window".

kleer001 3y ago
the center of a current Overton Window, to be precise, that thing's slippery
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  If you take the Overton Window as a simple parabola, with an up swing on left and right side of curve. I'm finding more and more that it has become more like a Mandelbrot Set and on any given day I'm not sure if I'd be considered Left or Right by any random other person who I also can't identify if they are Left or Right. It is almost like Left and Right are so confused now, that they have lost all meaning. Except when they vote, but they can't explain why they voted the way they did.
  - Terr_ 3y ago
    When it comes to LLMs being fed vast swathes of commentary, it's not so much the limits of the Overton window as the distribution.
    - epgui 3y ago
      > When it comes to LLMs being fed best to swab the son of commentary I understand all of these words individually, but I do not understand them in that sequence.
      - Terr_ 3y ago
        Sorry, that's entirely my fault, I tried dictating it to my phone but in typical fashion all technology is getting worse every day and I didn't proofread the disappointing results. Strangely apopos in a thread about computers generating undesirable text.
jimbokun 3y ago
Studies comparing outcomes of children raised in married, two parent households vs single parent homes do not support left leaning orthodoxy. That’s just one example off the top of my head. Overton window just keeps people from voicing right leaning opinions in polite company, even when thoroughly backed by data.
- Fauntleroy 3y ago
  What does single vs two parent households have to do with this?
  - Fauntleroy 3y ago
    Naturally, OP has abandoned this indefensible position.
- RangerScience 3y ago
  (edited) Are you claiming (1) that children from single-parent households have worse outcomes and (2) that left-leaning policies result in more single-parent households? (Not going to argue about #1, that seems pretty well established, just pulling it out as a claim for clarity. #2 is what I'd argue against, and would want to actually see your example so that it's possible to do so in a constructive way) > That’s just one example off the top of my head It's not an example until you provide enough for information for us to find what you're talking about ourselves; ideally, a link.
  - majormajor 3y ago
    AFAICT, the poster is claiming that "left leaning orthodoxy" says "there's no disadvantages to children to being raised in a single family household." I don't really know that that's true anyway. It doesn't seem to be a frequently discussed topic IME. There are related topics like "should divorce be available" and "should people be encouraged or discouraged from pre-marital sex" where I think they are extrapolating "if you support extra-marital sex then you also support single-family households and must therefore believe that they have no disadvantages" but I think that's a larger logical leap than I would personally make. It also doesn't seem to account for support for access to abortion which arguably counter-acts the support for experimentation with pre-marital sex... The general "left leaning" mood is also to provide services that help single-family households to mitigate issues for children anyway, so I think it's much more of a nuanced "lesser of two evils" position to support things like divorce being available.
mhuffman 3y ago
>They do say that reality has a left leaning bias I am not even sure how to interpret that. In the US, at least, politically people leaning left and leaning right are about even. I would definitely say that during my time in academia it appeared to me that more were left-leaning than people I knew in my non-academic life (ie. work, etc.) The fact that they have to spend so much time "re-aligning" these models seems to indicate that maybe the general public does not have a left-leaning bias at all.
- epgui 3y ago
  Your interpretation was immediately wrong, because the statement doesn't say anything about the prevalence of right-leaning people or left-leaning people. Google the phrase "reality has a left leaning bias" and you will find a variety of explanations as to what it means.
  - mhuffman 3y ago
    If I need multiple sources to explain it to me, then it is not communicating the information effectively is it? Also, I did Google it and got Reddit telling me that anyone that does not have a left leaning bias is just ignorant of science. Is that what you mean?
    - epgui 3y ago
      > If I need multiple sources to explain it to me, then it is not communicating the information effectively is it? Navigating life expecting to understand everything without first having to learn the things is... unreasonable. The burden is not exclusively on the one sending the message: the one receiving the message shares his part of the burden. > I did Google it and got Reddit telling me that anyone that does not have a left leaning bias is just ignorant of science That's directionally better, but it's definitely not what I mean and is not how I would put it. This is why you need to look at multiple sources. Not just for this, but in life in general.
      - mhuffman 3y ago
drak0n1c 3y ago
If we're going by sayings, there is another saying that the majority of text content on the internet was written by people who are mentally unwell. Training LLMs on that can resort in a distorted and unrepresentative perspective.

by epgui 3y ago

kleer001 3y ago

the center of a current Overton Window, to be precise, that thing's slippery

FrustratedMonky 3y ago
If you take the Overton Window as a simple parabola, with an up swing on left and right side of curve. I'm finding more and more that it has become more like a Mandelbrot Set and on any given day I'm not sure if I'd be considered Left or Right by any random other person who I also can't identify if they are Left or Right. It is almost like Left and Right are so confused now, that they have lost all meaning. Except when they vote, but they can't explain why they voted the way they did.
- Terr_ 3y ago
  When it comes to LLMs being fed vast swathes of commentary, it's not so much the limits of the Overton window as the distribution.
  - epgui 3y ago
    > When it comes to LLMs being fed best to swab the son of commentary I understand all of these words individually, but I do not understand them in that sequence.
    - Terr_ 3y ago
      Sorry, that's entirely my fault, I tried dictating it to my phone but in typical fashion all technology is getting worse every day and I didn't proofread the disappointing results. Strangely apopos in a thread about computers generating undesirable text.

jimbokun 3y ago

Studies comparing outcomes of children raised in married, two parent households vs single parent homes do not support left leaning orthodoxy. That’s just one example off the top of my head. Overton window just keeps people from voicing right leaning opinions in polite company, even when thoroughly backed by data.

Fauntleroy 3y ago
What does single vs two parent households have to do with this?
- Fauntleroy 3y ago
  Naturally, OP has abandoned this indefensible position.
RangerScience 3y ago
(edited) Are you claiming (1) that children from single-parent households have worse outcomes and (2) that left-leaning policies result in more single-parent households? (Not going to argue about #1, that seems pretty well established, just pulling it out as a claim for clarity. #2 is what I'd argue against, and would want to actually see your example so that it's possible to do so in a constructive way) > That’s just one example off the top of my head It's not an example until you provide enough for information for us to find what you're talking about ourselves; ideally, a link.
- majormajor 3y ago
  AFAICT, the poster is claiming that "left leaning orthodoxy" says "there's no disadvantages to children to being raised in a single family household." I don't really know that that's true anyway. It doesn't seem to be a frequently discussed topic IME. There are related topics like "should divorce be available" and "should people be encouraged or discouraged from pre-marital sex" where I think they are extrapolating "if you support extra-marital sex then you also support single-family households and must therefore believe that they have no disadvantages" but I think that's a larger logical leap than I would personally make. It also doesn't seem to account for support for access to abortion which arguably counter-acts the support for experimentation with pre-marital sex... The general "left leaning" mood is also to provide services that help single-family households to mitigate issues for children anyway, so I think it's much more of a nuanced "lesser of two evils" position to support things like divorce being available.

mhuffman 3y ago

>They do say that reality has a left leaning bias I am not even sure how to interpret that. In the US, at least, politically people leaning left and leaning right are about even. I would definitely say that during my time in academia it appeared to me that more were left-leaning than people I knew in my non-academic life (ie. work, etc.) The fact that they have to spend so much time "re-aligning" these models seems to indicate that maybe the general public does not have a left-leaning bias at all.

epgui 3y ago
Your interpretation was immediately wrong, because the statement doesn't say anything about the prevalence of right-leaning people or left-leaning people. Google the phrase "reality has a left leaning bias" and you will find a variety of explanations as to what it means.
- mhuffman 3y ago
  If I need multiple sources to explain it to me, then it is not communicating the information effectively is it? Also, I did Google it and got Reddit telling me that anyone that does not have a left leaning bias is just ignorant of science. Is that what you mean?
  - epgui 3y ago
    > If I need multiple sources to explain it to me, then it is not communicating the information effectively is it? Navigating life expecting to understand everything without first having to learn the things is... unreasonable. The burden is not exclusively on the one sending the message: the one receiving the message shares his part of the burden. > I did Google it and got Reddit telling me that anyone that does not have a left leaning bias is just ignorant of science That's directionally better, but it's definitely not what I mean and is not how I would put it. This is why you need to look at multiple sources. Not just for this, but in life in general.
    - mhuffman 3y ago

drak0n1c 3y ago

If we're going by sayings, there is another saying that the majority of text content on the internet was written by people who are mentally unwell. Training LLMs on that can resort in a distorted and unrepresentative perspective.