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Ethereum has blobs. Where do we go from here?
- Havoc 3y ago> proto-danksharding Points for unique naming
- ruuda 3y agoI used to think it had something to do with dank memes, but I recently learned it's named after Ethereum researcher Dankrad Feist who came up with the idea.
- k__ 3y agoDank, rad and feist? What a name!
- somedude895 3y agoThere's a security researcher who calls herself Isis Agora Lovecruft and I'm pretty sure it's not her real name. I thought it might be the same with this guy, but Dankrad seems to be an actual German name meaning something like "thanks for the advice"
- losvedir 3y agoAnd of course there's security researcher, Signal crypto designer, and former HN commenter, Moxie Marlinspike!
- Hendrikto 3y agoAs a German, I have never heard that name, but your translation is about correct. "Rat" as in "advice" is spelled with a T, but the name might be older than that spelling.
- somedude895 3y agoI found it here: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankred_(Vorname) https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankred_(Vorname) Apparently the name Tanqueray, like the gin brand, is related. Names are fun!
- twic 3y agoOh, so Tancred in English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tancred https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tancred
- pixelpoet 3y agoYep, Dankrad is "thanks for the bike" :D
- fwip 3y agoI dunno, seems like a plausible trans person name, since we get to pick our own. Also, their twitter profile currently indicates that they use they/them pronouns, not she/her.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- twic 3y agoI believe he developed the idea with another researcher, Diederik Loerakker, aka Protolambda, who contributed the other part of the name: https://ethereum.org/en/roadmap/danksharding/ https://ethereum.org/en/roadmap/danksharding/
- lxgr 3y agoAlso for transparency: I like how Ethereum doesn't even attempt trying to make any of this appear accessible to curious outsiders.
- ElevenLathe 3y agoStill less baffling than urbit!
- pcthrowaway 3y agoEthereum actually has excellent documentation... it's just that there's a mindboggling amount of it. Apparently it's quite complicated to make a worldwide trustlessly distributed computer that runs on imaginary money which nonetheless needs to be secure.
- pyaamb 3y agoif you enjoy learning from video, finematics is a great resource: https://www.youtube.com/@Finematics/videos https://www.youtube.com/@Finematics/videos
- duckman1 3y ago[dead]
- orthecreedence 3y agoI'm so out of the loop these days...I've written off blockchain junk almost entirely. Can someone break down what blobs are? Is this some kind of temporary place for transactions to go so they aren't charged fees individually? EDIT: NVM, I RTFMed https://ethereum.org/en/layer-2/ https://ethereum.org/en/layer-2/. I wonder what the trade-offs of layer 2 protocols are. Less secure?
- mypastself 3y agoA lot more centralized, in my view.
- hanniabu 3y agoIf you're going to leave a controversial comment like that then you should back it up
- hanniabu 3y agoPleasantly surprised to find this here, especially without all the "tokens are a scam" comments
- angry_albatross 3y ago[flagged]
- everfree 3y agoThis article isn't about tokens. If you believe blobs are "nonsense" that should be called out, I think that's an interesting discussion space to enter.
- angry_albatross 3y agoI was just repeating the quoted comment from the post I was replying to. Wasn't intending to say that the article was about tokens. More generally, I would say that Etherium itself is mostly nonsense. I will admit I don't understand very well what the purpose of the "blobs" are that are being discussed in the article, but from my perspective the entire idea of blockchain technology is not useful. I have yet to be convinced that there is any real problem being solved by it, but there are a lot of problems that are created, which then need to be resolved with ever more esoteric and unproven solutions, like what is described in this article.
- maxcoder4 3y ago>More generally, I would say that Etherium itself is mostly nonsense. It's "Ethereum". You can't even write the name of the project correctly, so how can I trust you expertise on that? >I will admit I don't understand very well what the purpose of the "blobs" are But we're talking under a link to a post about blobs? Sounds like an important context. >from my perspective the entire idea of blockchain technology is not useful Instead of trying to discuss that (and I could) - on HN there are plenty links to thinks I don't consider useful, like retrocomputing, programming in AGDA or yet another rust rewrite of some tool. I don't go around and leave nonproductive comments there, i just don't click them. Why do you feel a need to do so?
- hanniabu 3y ago> Today, we have all the tools we'll need, and indeed most of the tools we'll ever have, to build applications that are simultaneously cypherpunk and user-friendly. Really looking forward to the next couple years. Everyone has been writing this off as "no killer apps after 10 years" but there's a lot that's been happening to support adoption, from scaling to improved UX. In the next couple years those should percolate to production apps. The primary improvements have been rollups, blobs, account abstraction, and chain abstraction. An example of a new onboarding process being developed by coinbase can be seen here: https://twitter.com/WilsonCusack/status/1764355750149710190 https://twitter.com/WilsonCusack/status/1764355750149710190
- killthebuddha 3y agoI think it would be useful if the full domain (vitalik.eth.limo) was displayed. Not sure if that's possible or if it violates any HN policies about how links are displayed, apologies if it's a silly/useless suggestion. Edit: Not sure how popularis eth.limo w.r.t. to HN submissions, but the full domain should probably be displayed for any eth.limo submission.
- dang 3y agoOk!
- skybrian 3y agoI’m wondering how this compares with other cryptocurrencies that seem to be getting some attention, like Solana?
- everfree 3y agoSolana does not have blobs. It’s really as simple as that.
- skybrian 3y agoIt seems to have low-cost transactions. Isn’t that what the blobs are for? (Among other things.) (Sincere question; I don’t follow cryptocurrencies very closely.)
- everfree 3y agoBecause transaction fees on blockchains run as an auction market, low-cost transactions are enabled by high transaction throughput, at least relative to demand. In other words, any chain that has high throughput and/or low demand will have low-cost transactions. Solana and Ethereum attempt to achieve high throughput in very different ways. Ethereum blobs create transaction space that has a 0-of-n trust model (for zk-roll-ups) or a 1-of-n trust model (for optimistic roll-ups). This means that there needs to be either zero or one honest participant who carefully receives, processes and validates every single roll-up transaction in order for an outsider to be able to prove that the chain was not tampered with. In contrast, Solana achieves throughput by taking the classic blockchain structure (with its n-of-n trust model) and cranking the parameters up to 11. Basically they said "be a standard blockchain, but do everything a hundred times faster on expensive servers with beefy CPUs and datacenter connections". The advantages are that it took less development time and there are less moving parts in the stack. The disadvantage is that the Solana blockchain is not actually verifiable, in the sense that you or I could download a piece of software onto our home computer and follow along with the chain to make sure it's valid. Ethereum is verifiable in this way, even down through all of its (properly-designed and fully implemented) L2s. To distill the entire situation: In order to scale, Solana gives up some of the fundamental properties that make blockchains powerful. Ethereum, scaling with blobs, retains these fundamental blockchain properties.
- ArtTimeInvestor 3y agoAll this crpyto technology is fascinating. But is it used for anything? I asked this in an Ask HN today, but got no answer so far: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39852389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39852389 It looks like not a single HN reader is using blockchain technology for anything. If nobody is using blockchain technology outside of blockchain projects, what are the reasons we expect that some day we will? What could be a near term use case?
- wredcoll 3y agoLiterally no. No one is using it and no one has come up with a use.
- kinakomochidayo 3y agoThat's odd, Blackrock just created the BUIDL tokenized fund on Ethereum. Seems like there's definitely a use for it. https://securitize.io/learn/press/blackrock-launches-first-tokenized-fund-buidl-on-the-ethereum-network https://securitize.io/learn/press/blackrock-launches-first-t...
- pcthrowaway 3y agoWouldn't any company using blockchain technology be a blockchain project?
- stnmtn 3y agoSure, but if every blockchain project is just "building something for the blockchain" then where is the actual value?
- pcthrowaway 3y agoYou seem to be drawing a distinction here between companies that are building something for blockchain vs building something for people. Alright, I'll bite, here are some projects that use blockchain for things besides trading tokens or improving blockchain technology: - https://sarcophagus.io/ https://sarcophagus.io/ - https://www.gitcoin.co/ https://www.gitcoin.co/ - https://docs.kleros.io/ https://docs.kleros.io/ There's many more. Many don't have a lot of adoption, and I don't know if they will. But at the very least it's often interesting to see how traditional systems are reimagined in order to enable decentralized, trustless, computer programs (with humans interacting at the perimeter) to fulfill roles which would traditionally be filled by centralized, trusted intermediaries (often humans). If for no other reason than getting a front seat as many of them fall apart spectacularly but also because it's intellectually fascinating to see problems approached in an inverted manner.
- pa7x1 3y agoI'm going to leave here a few dashboards that might be interesting: See Ethereum scale day by day (today Ethereum is doing 160 tps, more than 10x its initial throughput): https://l2beat.com/scaling/activity https://l2beat.com/scaling/activity You can now settle your transactions on rollups for mere cents: https://fees-growthepie.streamlit.app/ https://fees-growthepie.streamlit.app/ Neat dashboards regarding blob usage: https://dune.com/hildobby/blobs https://dune.com/hildobby/blobs What's coming... With the current number of blobs Ethereum will likely be able to do up to ~500 tps on average. ~1000 tps in burst mode. But in coming upgrades the blobs will be sharded through Data Availability Sampling, allowing validators to verify only a subset while being sure that the rest of blobs are validated and available by the rest of the network. This will allow to scale Ethereum up to 256 blobs. Which will give Ethereum a throughput of around ~100K tps.
- dinobones 3y agoThank-you for the helpful links. Can you share some resources to learn about data availability sampling? Also, have folks invented a cheap/fast way of going from L2 <-> L2 without having to do an L1 tx? I fear that L2s may never be adopted due to network segmentation, but if it's possible for all L2s to interchange with each other cheaply, then it's just as good as L1 IMO.
- everfree 3y agoThis post from the ethresearch forum goes over data availability sampling (DAS) in detail. https://ethresear.ch/t/from-4844-to-danksharding-a-path-to-scaling-ethereum-da/18046 https://ethresear.ch/t/from-4844-to-danksharding-a-path-to-s... To transfer assets from L2 to L2, of course the naive implementation is to use a centralized intermediary, of which there are currently many that are reasonably priced. There are ways to go between zk-L2s without any central broker in theory; I’m not sure whether that’s also true of optimistic-L2s.
- chrisco255 3y ago> have folks invented a cheap/fast way of going from L2 <-> L2 without having to do an L1 tx? There are bridge providers like Connext (https://www.connext.network/ https://www.connext.network/), Hop (https://portal.arbitrum.io/projects/bridges-and-on-ramps?project=hopprotocol https://portal.arbitrum.io/projects/bridges-and-on-ramps?pro...), LayerZero (https://layerzero.network/ https://layerzero.network/) etc that provide liquidity across L2s to make it simple and cheap for common assets like USDC, ETH, etc. Attempts to do this trustlessly without relying on a liquidity provider do exist, but they're not mature enough to mention yet. They usually rely on zk proofs to validate that an asset was bridged from one chain to another. L2s are presently already supporting more activity than L1, with 4 L2s regularly doing more TPS than L1. Agreed that fragmentation is a concern, but I think we'll get there soon where the UX is abstracted away for users and the assets flow cheaply.
- Mahn 3y agoKey quote from the article: > Many have argued that the lack of large-scale applications for the past ten years proves that crypto is useless. I have always argued against this: pretty much every crypto application that is not financial speculation depends on low fees - and so while we have high fees, we should not be surprised that we mainly see financial speculation! > Now that we have blobs, this key constraint that has been holding us back all this time is starting to melt away. Fees are finally much lower; my statement from seven years ago that the internet of money should not cost more than five cents per transaction is finally coming true. --- All of this depends on so called "Layer 2s", which adds a great deal of UX complexity to the end user. I'm skeptical that this is best way to solve the scalability issues that plague cryptocurrency, but I will say that this looks to me like it has a much better shot of succeeding that anything Bitcoin has ever attempted to do on this front.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dylkil 3y ago> which adds a great deal of UX complexity to the end user Not exactly, L2s are being abstracted away, end users eventually wont even be aware what chain they are interacting with without tracing the tx
- danpalmer 3y ago5 cents per transaction is high for many parts of the world, and exceptionally high if every interaction in normal life is turned into a financial transaction.
- camillomiller 3y ago> On March 13, the Dencun hard fork activated, enabling one of the long-awaited features of Ethereum: proto-danksharding (aka EIP-4844, aka blobs). Initially, the fork reduced the transaction fees of rollups by a factor of over 100, as blobs were nearly free. In the last day, we finally saw blobs spike up in volume and the fee market activate as the blobscriptions protocol started to use them. Blobs are not free, but they remain much cheaper than calldata. Can someone please confirm this isn’t the incipit from an unpublished Douglas Adams novel?
- everfree 3y agoTypically when there's a highly technical topic on HN that I don't understand, I don't comment on the domain jargon. I didn't go into today's Babylon thread and comment "Node geometry? Gaussian splat rendering? Sounds like a Douglas Adams novel." So I guess just don't really understand the mentality.
- camillomiller 3y agoChill, I guess? The technical jargon sounds stylistically a lot more made up and playful than the one you suggested. When did HN become so unbearably stuck-up?
- EMM_386 3y agoHmm ... "proto-danksharding" which activated the "blobscriptions protocol" so that blobs are "much cheaper than calldata", all of this helping it to become an "L2-centric ecosystem". In the end, this leaves them "not confident enough in the complex code of an optimistic or SNARK-based EVM verifier". I'm sold ... just tell me where to transfer the money.
- everfree 3y agoThe actual quote is "we are not *currently* at the point where we can be confident enough in the complex code of an optimistic or SNARK-based EVM verifier". The article seems to imply that "in the end", they will be.
- elcritch 3y agoUnlike the parent, the full quote gives me more confidence that they're being serious about the upgrades to the Ethereum protocol. This stuff is all cutting edge distribute systems and zero-knowledge proofs work, so of course it's going to take a while to reach confidence in how it'll work.
- PoignardAzur 3y agoSomething tells me that even if/when the optimistic or SNARK-based EVM verifier is production-ready, the person you're replying to will still feel somewhat unconvinced.
- pa7x1 3y agoVery likely, but if they get it sorted out one day he will be using it without knowing. If you have no interest whatsoever and they start explaining to you all the cryptography behind establishing a secure connection to your bank most people would dismiss it as mumbo-jumbo. But now you can tell your grandma to look out for the little green lock on the web that makes her account secure.
- EMM_386 3y ago
- taxmeifyoucan 3y agoFor anyone interested in in-depth details of Ethereum protocol and upgrades, checkout the Protocol Study Group. Yesterday's presentation was about scaling and Danksharding, given by its creator https://epf.wiki/ https://epf.wiki/
- Version467 3y agoAs far as I can tell, the only cryptocurrency that actually delivers on its name (i.e. being used as a currency) is Monero. Sure, it's all drugs and stolen credit cards, but it does undeniably solve a real world problem for its users instead of just being used as a vehicle for speculative investment. With that said, I think if anyone comes up with a "killer-app" for crypto, then it'll be on the Ethereum chain. They seem to be the only ones who consistently work towards adding capabilities to the core technology. Edit: I realize I haven't commented on the article at all. This sentence stood out to me: > Today, we have all the tools we'll need, and indeed most of the tools we'll ever have, to build applications that are simultaneously cypherpunk and user-friendly. And so we should go out and do it. Clearly, this is an important step. But the two examples he provides as a beacon of what's possible (Daimo and Farcaster) don't inspire a lot of enthusiasm. Daimo is just a decentralized version of Venmo and Farcaster is a protocol to build social networks on the blockchain, which is yet another tool and not an application. I do still like reading Vitaliks thoughts. He's a pretty good writer, and it's evident that he spends a lot of time actually thinking about the topics he writes about.
- rglullis 3y agoOne of the things that made me less skeptical of Ethereum was that Vitalik has consistently argued based on his view of "Ether as digital oil to power the blockchain", which is to say that the point is not to just hodl, but to create a core technology that can enable different applications. I still think that we should not forget the "I need a censorship-proof way to send money to someone overseas" story, but mostly as a hedge against the existing institutions, not as an immediate need.
- pavlov 3y ago> “Ether as digital oil to power the blockchain” This has made you less skeptical of what he’s peddling? That slogan is a series of red flags in only eight words. He could be selling actual snake oil.
- pazimzadeh 3y ago
- bawolff 3y ago> Basically, Ethereum is no longer just a financial ecosystem. It's a full-stack replacement for large parts of "centralized tech", and even provides some things that centralized tech does not (eg. governance-related applications). And we need to build with this broader ecosystem in mind. I have respect for ethereum. It seems like one of the few cryptocurrency projects actually trying to push those ideas as far as they'll go, instead of just being endless scams. But still, at the end of the day, this feels like endless complexity and in the end we are just back we started: applications we could already do much better using traditional technologies. What even is the elevator pitch use case of all this?
- kinakomochidayo 3y ago> What even is the elevator pitch use case of all this? > It's a full-stack replacement for large parts of "centralized tech" Anti-censorship, permissionless data that lasts longer than centralized companies..?
- smoovb 3y agoMy (non-crypto) company uses USDC daily on L2 Arbitrum for international settlement, and have seen the fees drop to a few cents per transaction with the release of blobs. We have replaced the need for wires/TransferWise/Revolut on several of our routes.
- anonymousDan 3y agoAwesome. Can I ask the name of your company?
- defiamazing 3y agoThere is absolutely no reason for USDC to be on a blockchain other than to interact with DeFi. Once DeFi hype dies USDC will be outcompeted by a centralized solution. It's multisig controlled anyway so it's the same thing.
- arandomusername 3y ago
- ForHackernews 3y ago> On March 13, the Dencun hard fork activated, enabling one of the long-awaited features of Ethereum: proto-danksharding (aka EIP-4844, aka blobs). Initially, the fork reduced the transaction fees of rollups by a factor of over 100, as blobs were nearly free. In the last day, we finally saw blobs spike up in volume and the fee market activate as the blobscriptions protocol started to use them. Blobs are not free, but they remain much cheaper than calldata. > proto-danksharding > rollups > blobscriptions > calldata I realize this post is the High Priest of Ethereum preaching to his disciples, but we are deep deep into "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" territory here. Does anyone know if you can use multiple slurp juices on a single danksharded blob?
- everfree 3y agoTypically when there's a highly technical topic on HN that I don't understand, I don't comment on the thread about the domain jargon going over my head. I didn't go into today's Babylon thread and comment "Node geometry? Gaussian splat rendering? We are deep into angels dancing on a pin territory. Just use jQuery." I just don't understand the mentality of comments like yours, I suppose.
- ForHackernews 3y agoI suppose the difference is that in most technical topics the complexity is either inherent (quantum mechanics just is this way) or exists for a good reason (consensus algorithms are complicated but they solve a hard problem). IMHO this is not true in cryptocurrency, which is more akin to a self-sustaining pyramid scheme where the complexity serves to obscure the reality of the thing and draw in more rubes. All the nonsensical jargon around NFTs was trying to hide the fact that paying money for a URL to a jpeg of a monkey is stupid. As best I can gather, all this new "layer 2" nonsense is to try and hide the fact that blockchain is a slow, crappy database.
- kandel 3y agoI mean, it's a technical piece of code (ETH, that is), and every new piece gets a new name. It's not a more complicated terminology than you'd get for compilers or protocols - TCP wikipedia has "TCP provides reliable, ordered, and error-checked delivery of a stream of octets " which has 6 (or 5, depending how you'd count it), technical terms. They're not very abstract, sure, but it's just TCP, and we think that's completely normal. A logic class will suddenly try to teach you "eqvuilance relations", "Equivalence class", "Quotient set", "Projection", "Kernel" (Specifically in the Eqvuilance relation meaning), "partition", and that's only the terms I found in wikipedia. The class I help along has one more under this subject, and this is a first semester topic that is taught in a few weeks. All of those are technical, and all of those build on some other technical terms such as relations, functions, sets... I concede that crypto has a bad naming scheme. It all sounds silly.
- digger495 3y agoThey should shove it waaaaay up their butthole.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throwaway22032 3y agoPeople who still think cryptocurrency is pointless are like fundamentalist Christians saying that condoms are pointless. You're trying to imagine away the use cases because you don't agree with them.
- conradev 3y ago> Today, we have all the tools we'll need, and indeed most of the tools we'll ever have, to build applications that are simultaneously cypherpunk and user-friendly. > The Daimo wallet is explicitly describing itself as Venmo on Ethereum, aiming to combine Venmo's convenience with Ethereum's decentralization I will forever point this out, but Venmo has a “Private” setting. Your balance on Ethereum is public, as is any transaction you send. It just isn’t a viable replacement for cash
- lilianaalba9 3y ago[dead]
- ericyd 3y agoBy far my biggest takeaway from skimming the first ~10-15 paragraphs is that there is significantly too much jargon in the crypto space.
- everfree 3y agoThis is a highly technical article written by a protocol researcher to be read by other protocol researchers and implementers. I'm not really sure what level of jargon you expected. This article is akin to an aircraft architect writing about engine design to engine manufacturers - there's no reason to spell things out that the target audience already knows well.
- ericyd 3y agoextremely fair point. I was kinda trying to be funny but I also think I misunderstood the audience of the article
- leashless 3y ago7. The blockchain is now at a stage in its development equivalent to where the internet was in or around 1995. The internet was unstoppable in 1995 and blockchain technology is unstoppable now. It will become ubiquitous in all major industrial and financial sectors, simply because it allows for the immutable recording of data, thereby reducing friction in commercial and consumer transactions and obliterating the scope for dispute as to what has occurred. 8. As the Master of the Rolls and Head of Civil Justice in England and Wales, I hold an office that pre-dates modern trade in derivatives and reinsurance, even steam engines, powered flight, and certainly the internet. I am particularly and obviously concerned about the reputation and development of English law and the jurisdiction of England and Wales. 9. Many people do not realise that English law governs trading in €600 trillion of OTC derivatives annually, in €11.6 trillion in metals trading, in £250 billion in M&A deals, and in £80 billion in insurance contracts every year – just to take a few examples. My hope is that English law will prove to be the law of choice for borderless blockchain technology as its take up grows exponentially in the months and years to come. https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Speech-MR-to-Smarter-Contracts-Report-Launch-Lawtech-UK-UKJT-Blockchain-Smart-Contracts.pdf https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Speech-M... Case closed.
- Shawnj2 3y agoI still don’t understand what a fully realized crypto ecosystem would allow people to do that isn’t already being done well by standard technology. Like it or not, for most people doing most things, the government or large companies are suitable enough of a store of trust which is the problem crypto solves by being decentralized. I think it’s a neat technology for tech people but I still struggle to see why normal people doing most things would want to pay for things with bitcoin.
- leashless 3y agoSo the argument is twofold. 1) governments didn’t get to print money at will until they went off the gold standard, and the financial regime we have now is worse than the gold era. (Highly dubious, I don’t buy this entirely) 2) blockchain done right gives hub-and-spoke efficiency without creating hegemons like VISA, SWIFT and PayPal to boss around their users with impunity. This I believe entirely.
- wslh 3y agoDo I understand well that this update implies low fees for rollups but not for native Ethereum transactions themselves?
- Cloudef 3y agoMaybe ETH should focus on solving their scaling so the layer 1 doesn't cost arm and leg to do transfer on. Layer 2 becoming expensive as well and people already talking about Layer 3.
- kinakomochidayo 3y agoEventually, statelessness will help increase gas limit on L1. However, Ethereum L1 is supposed to be the settlement layer for rollups, and high security requirement transactions, not for shitcoin trading. Recursive rollups (L3s,L4s) have also been talked about for years now, and it should be pursued; that's how you can increase transaction throughput and decrease fees with the magic of zk.
- orbisvicis 3y agoI don't understand half of this. How do I go from "yay, I read the bitcoin paper" to this? A single comprehensive resource so I'm not hoovering crumbs from site to site.
- ipnon 3y agoThere is a lot to learn but it's all well-organized here: https://a16z.com/tag/the-canons/ https://a16z.com/tag/the-canons/ It would take even a bright student a year or two to go through all of this so pick and choose as you see fit. a16z has an excellent AI canon as well for self-study: https://a16z.com/ai-canon/ https://a16z.com/ai-canon/
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y agoWish all cryptobros get 25 years behind bars. Enough of their rat poison on HN.
- MaxSamuel 3y ago[dead]
- gklitz 3y agoDoes this mean that I can finally buy a cup of coffee with crypto at that one crypto cafe? Does it even still exist?
- hackburg 3y ago[dead]
- jamesdavid121 3y ago[dead]
- Elizabeth009 3y ago[dead]
- Elizabeth009 3y ago[dead]