6 ms·

For young people, the job search has never been so miserable

bitcharmer 3y ago
Looks like FT's memory span is pretty short. Today doesn't even get close to the misery of job-hunting in 2003 or 2008. That's why I stopped taking these news outlets seriously.
asne11 3y ago
https://archive.is/UcNgK https://archive.is/UcNgK
anonzzzies 3y ago
‘Never’ is a long time. There were far worse times in (recent) history, but currently I see many companies rather hiring no one than a graduate/junior. At least in my field (which is common here; saas dev, fullstack), I have too pick between paying a graduate a very large amount of $, much to close to a medior or even senior, to skip over them. I would love to hire someone like me when I was a graduate: I didn’t have much costs so I worked for very little and was eager so I worked hard and tried to soak up everything. It seems these are different times and as a small company, I simply cannot take the risk for the salaries people are asking with zippo experience.
- busterarm 3y ago
  On the other hand, senior pay expectations are wildly out of orbit because of some exuberant behavior from the FAANGs during COVID. It's been extra annoying because they say the compensation range is fine before the interviews and suddenly their pay expectations are 20%-50% higher than the high end of the range after interviews even when they have no other offers and even if they didn't wow us in the interview.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    I guess that depends a little more on location than the junior situation; here (EU), the seniors applying are much more stable salary wise. Much less golden mountains; they just want a job and stability, not dreams and chaos. Most I speak to over 40 want jobs for life, not hop. Raised by inflation yearly and that for the coming 27 or so years until retirement.
    - busterarm 3y ago
      Oh for sure it's definitely in the States where everyone has a big head.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        Is it possible everyone has a small pocket outside the States?
        busterarm 3y ago
        I didn't mean what I said sarcastically. Everyone I know elsewhere in this industry who wants a big salary just comes and gets a job here.
  - t-writescode 3y ago
    Where are you seeing that? A lot of senior roles I'm seeing lately have a salary range of 150k. That used to be the salary of mid-level in my area (PNW)
    - busterarm 3y ago
      Not as severe but that's sort of my point. For a brief year or two some companies were offering senior talent insane/unsustainable money and salaries are coming back down. People still think that they're worth the insane money that FAANGs were paying during the lockdowns that they have since mostly laid off. It's fairly normal in NY for senior IC hires to be offered 180k-230k plus some equity. I'm seeing candidates who agree to interview being told this range and then come offer time they won't budge below 280k cash and expect big equity. Sure, Facebook was paying people that two years ago but they are aggressively lowballing people right now and we aren't.
- Tknl 3y ago
  As a hiring manager I can understand this view. I'm also in SaaS dev. But in the Netherlands at least most of the raising IT salary demands aligned with inflation, particularly if one includes housing market inflation. People are not going to accept a salary which still won't get them towards homeownrship with dual incomes if they can avoid it.
  - yurishimo 3y ago
    Can I ask roughly where you are in NL? I'm an immigrant from the US and still trying to get a hold on prices here in regards to salary. My wife and I together make around 7500 gross in the Eindhoven area. Still enough to get ahead if we are conscious of our expenses, but not lavish by any stretch. The country seems to be shifting some and that's always a bit nerve racking when you're one step lower on the social ladder than everyone else. Are salaries really that much higher in the Holland compared to Brabant? I have ten years of experience as a fullstack dev.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    Yes, and in NL (I am Dutch) that problem is a lot bigger than in many other places. But if they feel they can avoid it, they should; this might mean no job (for a long time) though. Which is currently the reality. It’ll get better probably but no one knows when so these are choices; earn less with a job or wait? There is a lot of talent but there is also a bottom line; the gap senior/medior/junior is just not big enough so it makes little sense to hire a junior currently.
- debtless4080 3y ago
  My situation speaks to the exact opposite. I'm currently studying computer science at grad level because I can't find even an UNPAID gig. It is honestly a soul destroying experience.
  - throwaway5959 3y ago
    Hang in there. I was looking at some graphs from the Fed that showed Technology hiring vs unemployment. I think it’ll turn around by June/July.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  “I would love to hire someone like me when I was a graduate” Oh I’m sure. The narcissism is palpable.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    We always had a good mix of graduates and experienced devs, it’s in the last years that the prices jumped too much to keep that working. Nothing to do with emotions or narcissism.
Tutitk 3y ago
> pages and pages of jobs, most requiring at least three, even five, years of experience. > recent graduate with a degree in cyber security College is the problem! It should provide job relevant skills and education! Instead students are forced to study irrelevant garbage. If this guy studied himself, he would save money, and had a few years of relevant experience by now.
- densh 3y ago
  If years of experience count only from performing similar job, and there are no entry level positions available, there is no way get that initial experience.
- inductive_magic 3y ago
  As someone who “made it” without a formal degree: oh come on. If nobody opens doors for you, it takes a lot more than just intellect and grit to establish yourself. While I don’t have many good things to say about the established education systems, it’s beyond naive to act like “just do it on your own” is a scalable approach. Even today, some doors will stay closed for me, simply because I will always have to justify why I have no formal degree (and the doorkeepers are not incentivized to even listen since the pool of candidates is big), and some of those doors are highly interesting.
  - busterarm 3y ago
    I'm in a similar experience as you, but as my career grows longer into the decades I realize that it takes just as much mental fortitude to stay working in this field as it did for us to break into it from the unusual path. The half life of software engineers is quite short. Even some of the brightest minds I met who went to some of the best schools ended up just being tourists in this industry -- flushed out and disillusioned after only a few years.
    - inductive_magic 3y ago
      I’m not just thinking about software engineering. There are lots of interesting positions which require any degree just as a basic requirement, especially in emerging fields, strategic roles, and generally in big companies. Maybe they’ll consider me qualified after I’ve built my own company, but if they encode the degree as a hard requirement the screening AI will just ditch my resume. I don’t plan to stay in software for the rest of my life. Currently, my company develops knowledge engineering solutions, but in 5-10 years, I’d like to get some fresh air.
MikusR 3y ago
And now imagine how it's for old people changing careers.
- busterarm 3y ago
  A friend of mine is trying to change careers to software development at 42 after being a musician his whole life. He's a smart guy but it's going to be a rough road.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  Yeah, better don’t. Some of my 50+ (which I am too) are basically suicidal after being let go or after quitting during covid or taking the wrong bet starting a company before covid. The number of burn outs because of job hunting is staggering when I look around.
Ekaros 3y ago
Is it actually worse compared to post 2008?
- simonCGN 3y ago
  Definitely not
- KoftaBob 3y ago
  Not even remotely as bad, these articles are rage-bait.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ant6n 3y ago
  Where’s the market cash along with the Don and gloom talk. It kind of feels like a bubble.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    Moved to part where it is going up due to cut cost, or investment in something different... That is AI chip orders and AI company hiring... Those AI companies should be hiring, as they are getting massive investment and someone needs to do some work there. Or what am I missing?
jimbob45 3y ago
Employers may imagine the system is efficient. In fact, it is a wasted opportunity. Every time someone applies for a job, there is a chance to build that company’s reputation. Couldn’t agree with this more. I’ve heard some stories about companies rejecting candidates too late in the process to be professional. It’s like they don’t think we talk about them.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
d--b 3y ago
Meanwhile, the stock market is through the roof, bitcoin rallied spectacularly, the housing market is unreachable to most, and let's just not talk about gold. And AI hasn't kicked in yet. At some point, we'll need to throw all the economists into the sea and start realizing what's going on here...
- eql5 3y ago
  > At some point, we'll need to throw all the economists into the sea and start realizing what's going on here... The REAL insiders know very well what's going on, but it's one of the best kept secrets among them: QFS is coming (almost there now), and they know it. But since they (the old, evil central banks) can't control it - because it's not FIAT anymore, but asset backed - they are literally desperate now, because they are losing control... This may sound like a conspiracy theory, but there is enough information out there that can confirm this. In a few months from now (after the total collapse of the old financial system and the complete stock market crash), we will be wiser...
  - eql5 3y ago
    ...and just as a side note: a conspiracy is a felony (not a theory). So, the REAL problem is not an eventual "deep state" (secret societies do in fact exist, and they are called "secret" for a reason): the real problem are the "deep asleep" people around the world, not wanting to wake up to the truth... HN is one of the worst places in this regard...
- api 3y ago
  Inflation in everything but wages, information, and technology. Inflation adjusted wages are relatively flat compared to inflation elsewhere, while information and tech are deflating. The wave of super cheap EVs hasn’t even hit yet, and as you say AI hasn’t really hit yet. Solar power will soon be the cheapest source of power in history and it’s still falling. This has been going on for about two decades. How does this end? A bunch of superintelligent superconnected homeless cyborgs? Borg living in cardboard boxes pushing shopping carts around?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
iamacyborg 3y ago
I was made redundant a couple months ago and this market is the roughest I’ve experienced since entering the workforce in 2011. I can imagine it being a huge pile of suck for folks without some decent experience under their belt.
bluSCALE4 3y ago
I graduated in 2007 and decided to take a low paying IT job that I stuck with for 2 years. It was demoralizing but it luckily led me to web development. I think it’s important to remember that there are lots of options available early on if you lower your standards and expectations. The job was rough, a lot of self learning but it prepared me well for what was to come.
- sph 3y ago
  2007 was a couple economical eras ago. I started around the same time, and it is impossible to compare then and now. Even post-global financial crisis, the job market was not as dire.
epolanski 3y ago
Can say that the situation of my friends in southern Europe is beyond depressing even if they have already years of experience. My gf with a law degree, having worked at a tribunal, and now in a bank for more than 5 years can find literally nothing. Ghosting after ghosting. My friends who have chemistry degrees are in similar situation, just nobody answers for months and months.
sph 3y ago
Honest story time. I don't even feel like hiding behind a throwaway. In 2020 my boss, and CEO suddenly passed away to cancer. I found myself (CTO) having to run an entire company, while I was already dealing with personal issues. I rose to the occasion, did the best I could while also I explored the possibility of selling the company, which felt the most sensible option given the context (which I am not going to explore here). After a year of the most intense work I have done my entire life, the majority partner (and inheritor of the boss' shares) decided they didn't want to sell after all. Then everything imploded, I went on a massive nervous breakdown and burned out to cinders. Months later, in later 2021, I left because I literally felt I would die of exhaustion. It was necessary to take a very long break. After 18 months of a sabbatical and working on my health, things started to look up, and I was starting to get bored. I have been working as a software engineer for 17 years, as employee and later consultant, and as a fully self-taught person I believe I am pretty darned good at it. What follows is 6 months of fruitless job search. Hundreds of CVs sent to no response. People telling me "it's the market", "it's your resume", "it's because you have too much experience", "it's because of Brexit". Silly phrases to explain the state of tech job search. In 6 months of job search, I felt I was crashing back into a second burnout and needed a change. For the past year and a half I have been working on launching a business because it's the only avenue left to me, and only chance to avoid going through the meat grinder again. With crappy jobs on Upwork at $50/h, some underpaid consulting here and there, and UK universal income I have managed to keep a roof over my head, launch a business but still far from being financially secure. It is fucking exhausting, yet somehow job search is even worse than that. If a person with this much experience like me is unable to find a bloody job, I loathe to imagine what juniors go through. If I hear one more person say "the economy is not so bad" I'm gonna force them to look for a job the good old way, through the cosmic joke that job boards are. Something is utterly broken in hiring, in recruitment, in the entire job market and no one is at the wheel. "The economy is not so bad, look at this chart", they tell you.
- thunderbong 3y ago
  Your comment struck a chord. Take care and wish you all the best.
  - 3y ago
ankit219 3y ago
I can understand ATS is dehumanizing, but to frame it like in the article does little to solve the problem. The article does not even highlight the actual problem as to why companies have such automated processes. Number of applicants per job have increased manifold in recent years. No matter how many recruiters you hire, they can at max look at ~200 (20-30 per hour) resumes per day (assuming they don't work on anything else). On many entry level roles on LinkedIn, the number of applicants are more than 10,000. You need an automated system somehow. There is also a tendency in this demographic to compare against their peers and wanting the same jobs, perks, etc. while they may or may not want to make an effort towards it. Not sure if that is possible in the short run.
Zenzero 3y ago
My perspective as someone that crossed over from medicine is that the software industry suffers from two current problems: lack of licensure and wild expectations. The standard hiring process has grown into a monstrous time sink on both sides, and it is purely because there is no quality filter on job applicants. Contrast this with hiring in the medical field, which can be as simple as giving them your name so they can verify your licensure status. I know that the velocity of change in the software industry makes it difficult to maintain an agreed upon standard of knowledge, but in my mind until you have a more robust centralized certifying authority, this will continue to be an unsolved problem. The second problem is that I have met several devs that have quite frankly ludicrous expectations surrounding compensation and the work needed to obtain it. At least in the US, virtually any other job that pays you over 150k TC by 25 years of age demands rigorous hours and likely low wages prior to that. Comparing to my colleagues in medicine and my friends in law and finance, it became a joke how shockingly disconnected expectations in the software world have become. Like others have said, the FAANG salary scale has contributed to exuberant behavior. I've had enough conversations with smug recent grads on what falls below their inflated standards of worth to know that the miserable job market is a badly needed correction for the better.
tennisflyi 3y ago
Here I was thinking I was alone
rich_sasha 3y ago
It would be great to see some statistics on this. All I see is anecdata, some people saying it is abysmal, some saying it's fine if you're good. It's hard to compare to eg 2008, when I wasn't even in the market. Fwiw, I'm not really looking, just the usual back burner. There's lots of HH enquiries, but it all ends with ghosting.
jacknews 3y ago
"While ministers debate reducing benefits to boost incentives" It really takes some brass balls to float this as a solution to the 'problem' of incentivizing people to work, and keep a straight moral face. How about increasing wages to something livable, maybe via extending benefits into employment?

Looks like FT's memory span is pretty short. Today doesn't even get close to the misery of job-hunting in 2003 or 2008. That's why I stopped taking these news outlets seriously.

asne11 3y ago

https://archive.is/UcNgK https://archive.is/UcNgK

anonzzzies 3y ago

‘Never’ is a long time. There were far worse times in (recent) history, but currently I see many companies rather hiring no one than a graduate/junior. At least in my field (which is common here; saas dev, fullstack), I have too pick between paying a graduate a very large amount of $, much to close to a medior or even senior, to skip over them. I would love to hire someone like me when I was a graduate: I didn’t have much costs so I worked for very little and was eager so I worked hard and tried to soak up everything. It seems these are different times and as a small company, I simply cannot take the risk for the salaries people are asking with zippo experience.

busterarm 3y ago
On the other hand, senior pay expectations are wildly out of orbit because of some exuberant behavior from the FAANGs during COVID. It's been extra annoying because they say the compensation range is fine before the interviews and suddenly their pay expectations are 20%-50% higher than the high end of the range after interviews even when they have no other offers and even if they didn't wow us in the interview.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  I guess that depends a little more on location than the junior situation; here (EU), the seniors applying are much more stable salary wise. Much less golden mountains; they just want a job and stability, not dreams and chaos. Most I speak to over 40 want jobs for life, not hop. Raised by inflation yearly and that for the coming 27 or so years until retirement.
  - busterarm 3y ago
    Oh for sure it's definitely in the States where everyone has a big head.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Is it possible everyone has a small pocket outside the States?
      - busterarm 3y ago
        I didn't mean what I said sarcastically. Everyone I know elsewhere in this industry who wants a big salary just comes and gets a job here.
- t-writescode 3y ago
  Where are you seeing that? A lot of senior roles I'm seeing lately have a salary range of 150k. That used to be the salary of mid-level in my area (PNW)
  - busterarm 3y ago
    Not as severe but that's sort of my point. For a brief year or two some companies were offering senior talent insane/unsustainable money and salaries are coming back down. People still think that they're worth the insane money that FAANGs were paying during the lockdowns that they have since mostly laid off. It's fairly normal in NY for senior IC hires to be offered 180k-230k plus some equity. I'm seeing candidates who agree to interview being told this range and then come offer time they won't budge below 280k cash and expect big equity. Sure, Facebook was paying people that two years ago but they are aggressively lowballing people right now and we aren't.
Tknl 3y ago
As a hiring manager I can understand this view. I'm also in SaaS dev. But in the Netherlands at least most of the raising IT salary demands aligned with inflation, particularly if one includes housing market inflation. People are not going to accept a salary which still won't get them towards homeownrship with dual incomes if they can avoid it.
- yurishimo 3y ago
  Can I ask roughly where you are in NL? I'm an immigrant from the US and still trying to get a hold on prices here in regards to salary. My wife and I together make around 7500 gross in the Eindhoven area. Still enough to get ahead if we are conscious of our expenses, but not lavish by any stretch. The country seems to be shifting some and that's always a bit nerve racking when you're one step lower on the social ladder than everyone else. Are salaries really that much higher in the Holland compared to Brabant? I have ten years of experience as a fullstack dev.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  Yes, and in NL (I am Dutch) that problem is a lot bigger than in many other places. But if they feel they can avoid it, they should; this might mean no job (for a long time) though. Which is currently the reality. It’ll get better probably but no one knows when so these are choices; earn less with a job or wait? There is a lot of talent but there is also a bottom line; the gap senior/medior/junior is just not big enough so it makes little sense to hire a junior currently.
debtless4080 3y ago
My situation speaks to the exact opposite. I'm currently studying computer science at grad level because I can't find even an UNPAID gig. It is honestly a soul destroying experience.
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  Hang in there. I was looking at some graphs from the Fed that showed Technology hiring vs unemployment. I think it’ll turn around by June/July.
throwaway5959 3y ago
“I would love to hire someone like me when I was a graduate” Oh I’m sure. The narcissism is palpable.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  We always had a good mix of graduates and experienced devs, it’s in the last years that the prices jumped too much to keep that working. Nothing to do with emotions or narcissism.

Tutitk 3y ago

> pages and pages of jobs, most requiring at least three, even five, years of experience. > recent graduate with a degree in cyber security College is the problem! It should provide job relevant skills and education! Instead students are forced to study irrelevant garbage. If this guy studied himself, he would save money, and had a few years of relevant experience by now.

densh 3y ago
If years of experience count only from performing similar job, and there are no entry level positions available, there is no way get that initial experience.
inductive_magic 3y ago
As someone who “made it” without a formal degree: oh come on. If nobody opens doors for you, it takes a lot more than just intellect and grit to establish yourself. While I don’t have many good things to say about the established education systems, it’s beyond naive to act like “just do it on your own” is a scalable approach. Even today, some doors will stay closed for me, simply because I will always have to justify why I have no formal degree (and the doorkeepers are not incentivized to even listen since the pool of candidates is big), and some of those doors are highly interesting.
- busterarm 3y ago
  I'm in a similar experience as you, but as my career grows longer into the decades I realize that it takes just as much mental fortitude to stay working in this field as it did for us to break into it from the unusual path. The half life of software engineers is quite short. Even some of the brightest minds I met who went to some of the best schools ended up just being tourists in this industry -- flushed out and disillusioned after only a few years.
  - inductive_magic 3y ago
    I’m not just thinking about software engineering. There are lots of interesting positions which require any degree just as a basic requirement, especially in emerging fields, strategic roles, and generally in big companies. Maybe they’ll consider me qualified after I’ve built my own company, but if they encode the degree as a hard requirement the screening AI will just ditch my resume. I don’t plan to stay in software for the rest of my life. Currently, my company develops knowledge engineering solutions, but in 5-10 years, I’d like to get some fresh air.

MikusR 3y ago

And now imagine how it's for old people changing careers.

busterarm 3y ago
A friend of mine is trying to change careers to software development at 42 after being a musician his whole life. He's a smart guy but it's going to be a rough road.
anonzzzies 3y ago
Yeah, better don’t. Some of my 50+ (which I am too) are basically suicidal after being let go or after quitting during covid or taking the wrong bet starting a company before covid. The number of burn outs because of job hunting is staggering when I look around.

Ekaros 3y ago

Is it actually worse compared to post 2008?

simonCGN 3y ago
Definitely not
KoftaBob 3y ago
Not even remotely as bad, these articles are rage-bait.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ant6n 3y ago
Where’s the market cash along with the Don and gloom talk. It kind of feels like a bubble.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Moved to part where it is going up due to cut cost, or investment in something different... That is AI chip orders and AI company hiring... Those AI companies should be hiring, as they are getting massive investment and someone needs to do some work there. Or what am I missing?

jimbob45 3y ago

Employers may imagine the system is efficient. In fact, it is a wasted opportunity. Every time someone applies for a job, there is a chance to build that company’s reputation. Couldn’t agree with this more. I’ve heard some stories about companies rejecting candidates too late in the process to be professional. It’s like they don’t think we talk about them.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

d--b 3y ago

Meanwhile, the stock market is through the roof, bitcoin rallied spectacularly, the housing market is unreachable to most, and let's just not talk about gold. And AI hasn't kicked in yet. At some point, we'll need to throw all the economists into the sea and start realizing what's going on here...

eql5 3y ago
> At some point, we'll need to throw all the economists into the sea and start realizing what's going on here... The REAL insiders know very well what's going on, but it's one of the best kept secrets among them: QFS is coming (almost there now), and they know it. But since they (the old, evil central banks) can't control it - because it's not FIAT anymore, but asset backed - they are literally desperate now, because they are losing control... This may sound like a conspiracy theory, but there is enough information out there that can confirm this. In a few months from now (after the total collapse of the old financial system and the complete stock market crash), we will be wiser...
- eql5 3y ago
  ...and just as a side note: a conspiracy is a felony (not a theory). So, the REAL problem is not an eventual "deep state" (secret societies do in fact exist, and they are called "secret" for a reason): the real problem are the "deep asleep" people around the world, not wanting to wake up to the truth... HN is one of the worst places in this regard...
api 3y ago
Inflation in everything but wages, information, and technology. Inflation adjusted wages are relatively flat compared to inflation elsewhere, while information and tech are deflating. The wave of super cheap EVs hasn’t even hit yet, and as you say AI hasn’t really hit yet. Solar power will soon be the cheapest source of power in history and it’s still falling. This has been going on for about two decades. How does this end? A bunch of superintelligent superconnected homeless cyborgs? Borg living in cardboard boxes pushing shopping carts around?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

iamacyborg 3y ago

I was made redundant a couple months ago and this market is the roughest I’ve experienced since entering the workforce in 2011. I can imagine it being a huge pile of suck for folks without some decent experience under their belt.

bluSCALE4 3y ago

I graduated in 2007 and decided to take a low paying IT job that I stuck with for 2 years. It was demoralizing but it luckily led me to web development. I think it’s important to remember that there are lots of options available early on if you lower your standards and expectations. The job was rough, a lot of self learning but it prepared me well for what was to come.

sph 3y ago
2007 was a couple economical eras ago. I started around the same time, and it is impossible to compare then and now. Even post-global financial crisis, the job market was not as dire.

epolanski 3y ago

Can say that the situation of my friends in southern Europe is beyond depressing even if they have already years of experience. My gf with a law degree, having worked at a tribunal, and now in a bank for more than 5 years can find literally nothing. Ghosting after ghosting. My friends who have chemistry degrees are in similar situation, just nobody answers for months and months.

sph 3y ago

Honest story time. I don't even feel like hiding behind a throwaway. In 2020 my boss, and CEO suddenly passed away to cancer. I found myself (CTO) having to run an entire company, while I was already dealing with personal issues. I rose to the occasion, did the best I could while also I explored the possibility of selling the company, which felt the most sensible option given the context (which I am not going to explore here). After a year of the most intense work I have done my entire life, the majority partner (and inheritor of the boss' shares) decided they didn't want to sell after all. Then everything imploded, I went on a massive nervous breakdown and burned out to cinders. Months later, in later 2021, I left because I literally felt I would die of exhaustion. It was necessary to take a very long break. After 18 months of a sabbatical and working on my health, things started to look up, and I was starting to get bored. I have been working as a software engineer for 17 years, as employee and later consultant, and as a fully self-taught person I believe I am pretty darned good at it. What follows is 6 months of fruitless job search. Hundreds of CVs sent to no response. People telling me "it's the market", "it's your resume", "it's because you have too much experience", "it's because of Brexit". Silly phrases to explain the state of tech job search. In 6 months of job search, I felt I was crashing back into a second burnout and needed a change. For the past year and a half I have been working on launching a business because it's the only avenue left to me, and only chance to avoid going through the meat grinder again. With crappy jobs on Upwork at $50/h, some underpaid consulting here and there, and UK universal income I have managed to keep a roof over my head, launch a business but still far from being financially secure. It is fucking exhausting, yet somehow job search is even worse than that. If a person with this much experience like me is unable to find a bloody job, I loathe to imagine what juniors go through. If I hear one more person say "the economy is not so bad" I'm gonna force them to look for a job the good old way, through the cosmic joke that job boards are. Something is utterly broken in hiring, in recruitment, in the entire job market and no one is at the wheel. "The economy is not so bad, look at this chart", they tell you.

thunderbong 3y ago
Your comment struck a chord. Take care and wish you all the best.
- 3y ago

ankit219 3y ago

I can understand ATS is dehumanizing, but to frame it like in the article does little to solve the problem. The article does not even highlight the actual problem as to why companies have such automated processes. Number of applicants per job have increased manifold in recent years. No matter how many recruiters you hire, they can at max look at ~200 (20-30 per hour) resumes per day (assuming they don't work on anything else). On many entry level roles on LinkedIn, the number of applicants are more than 10,000. You need an automated system somehow. There is also a tendency in this demographic to compare against their peers and wanting the same jobs, perks, etc. while they may or may not want to make an effort towards it. Not sure if that is possible in the short run.

Zenzero 3y ago

My perspective as someone that crossed over from medicine is that the software industry suffers from two current problems: lack of licensure and wild expectations. The standard hiring process has grown into a monstrous time sink on both sides, and it is purely because there is no quality filter on job applicants. Contrast this with hiring in the medical field, which can be as simple as giving them your name so they can verify your licensure status. I know that the velocity of change in the software industry makes it difficult to maintain an agreed upon standard of knowledge, but in my mind until you have a more robust centralized certifying authority, this will continue to be an unsolved problem. The second problem is that I have met several devs that have quite frankly ludicrous expectations surrounding compensation and the work needed to obtain it. At least in the US, virtually any other job that pays you over 150k TC by 25 years of age demands rigorous hours and likely low wages prior to that. Comparing to my colleagues in medicine and my friends in law and finance, it became a joke how shockingly disconnected expectations in the software world have become. Like others have said, the FAANG salary scale has contributed to exuberant behavior. I've had enough conversations with smug recent grads on what falls below their inflated standards of worth to know that the miserable job market is a badly needed correction for the better.

tennisflyi 3y ago

Here I was thinking I was alone

rich_sasha 3y ago

It would be great to see some statistics on this. All I see is anecdata, some people saying it is abysmal, some saying it's fine if you're good. It's hard to compare to eg 2008, when I wasn't even in the market. Fwiw, I'm not really looking, just the usual back burner. There's lots of HH enquiries, but it all ends with ghosting.

jacknews 3y ago

"While ministers debate reducing benefits to boost incentives" It really takes some brass balls to float this as a solution to the 'problem' of incentivizing people to work, and keep a straight moral face. How about increasing wages to something livable, maybe via extending benefits into employment?