4 ms·

I love the scapegoat concept, it solves problems in at least 3 ways: - resolves pressure that builds up due to social paradoxes (don't like you but have to pre

by sdwr 3y ago

I love the scapegoat concept, it solves problems in at least 3 ways: - resolves pressure that builds up due to social paradoxes (don't like you but have to pretend to, have desires but can't admit to them) - reminds everyone that it could be worse, normal problems are no big deal compared to actual violence - and promotes bonding over a shared enemy

agumonkey 3y ago
I wish I could find some curated readings about the sociology of shared enemy and all the usual social reflexes that lead bad states.
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  Not exactly curated, but Durant & Durant The Story of Civilization (1935-1975) is 11 volumes containing several bright spots interspersed with an awful lot of people being awful to each other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Civilization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Civilization People are people, so why should it be They often treat each other so awfully
  - agumonkey 3y ago
    thanks a lot, and fine choice of quote
    - 082349872349872 3y ago
      you're welcome. (if you'd like, have a 1927/1984 mashup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctqMIkrqCj8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctqMIkrqCj8 )
Biologist123 3y ago
I’ve wondered if the democratic process is really a civilized form of scape-goating. Elections are a pressure valve, meaning incumbent parties are ejected from office and fresh faces brought in, albeit often with little change in the policies that caused pressures to build.
- api 3y ago
  Oh definitely. It allows violent conflict to be replaced by… well… culture wars, and murder with voting people out or maybe legal battles. That’s massively more civilized and avoids destroying all of society’s accumulated wealth in destructive conflicts. Avoiding burning everything to the ground all the time might be the main reason democracies tend to be wealthier.
  - 082349872349872 3y ago
    Switzerland was considered a poor country in the 19th century, but didn't get bombed to rubble in either 1914-1918 or 1936-1945, and so now it's considered rich. I wonder how solarpunk continental europe might've been now if it had somehow avoided the "short 20th century (1914-1991)".
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  If one thinks of the democratic process as replacing physical conflict, then gerrymandering can't get too out of hand, because at some point the actual majority will call. If it's just a civilised form of scapegoating, then gerrymandering could potentially reach insanely high levels, as long as it provides a good show (à la Russian Federation elections?) of ritual conflict.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
xotesos 3y ago
The most profound thing I have read is a short mention in I See Satan Fall Like Lighting. Something like the more we become the same , the more we become engulfed in mimetic rivalry. I suspect it sheds quite a bit of light on the modern divide in the US. Not a divide because of differences but because of similarities. Not a fan of Trump to say the least but it also seems rather obvious who is functioning as a the scapegoat mechanism for a large group of people.
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  I agree that he could easily be functioning as a scapegoat mechanism, uniting people who believe "anyone but". As to being an actual scapegoat, I doubt it: scapegoats are innocent. He is accused of being a racist (Central Park 5) misogynist ("Grab em") bigot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX9reO3QnUA#t=16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX9reO3QnUA#t=16) We are apparently a long time removed from 'quoniam meos tam suspicione quam crimine iudico carere oportere'.
  - IncreasePosts 3y ago
    Yeah, the central park 5 were innocent but everyone was racist in the 80s if that is the standard. All those poor kids were doing was beating random people, stealing from them, and knocking them out and leaving them for dead to whoever might come along. But they weren't rapists.
    - 082349872349872 3y ago
      Yes, and Trump was happy to judge before any facts came out (also well before the city settled for $41M), based apparently on (a) what he thought had happened, and (b) how he thought the justice system ought to work; most people in the 80s would not have done that. lighter: https://www.theonion.com/trump-takes-out-full-page-newspaper-ad-calling-for-deat-1850299979 https://www.theonion.com/trump-takes-out-full-page-newspaper... darker: http://apps.frontline.org/clinton-trump-keys-to-their-characters/pdf/trump-newspaper.pdf http://apps.frontline.org/clinton-trump-keys-to-their-charac... Note that even in Russia, the death penalty theoretically no longer exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
pjc50 3y ago
This is great for everyone except the scapegoat. > normal problems are no big deal compared to actual violence Even democratic pro-human-rights societies tolerate quite a lot of violence towards their scapegoats.
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  Compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Omelas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Om...

by sdwr 3y ago

agumonkey 3y ago

I wish I could find some curated readings about the sociology of shared enemy and all the usual social reflexes that lead bad states.

082349872349872 3y ago
Not exactly curated, but Durant & Durant The Story of Civilization (1935-1975) is 11 volumes containing several bright spots interspersed with an awful lot of people being awful to each other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Civilization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Civilization People are people, so why should it be They often treat each other so awfully
- agumonkey 3y ago
  thanks a lot, and fine choice of quote
  - 082349872349872 3y ago
    you're welcome. (if you'd like, have a 1927/1984 mashup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctqMIkrqCj8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctqMIkrqCj8 )

Biologist123 3y ago

I’ve wondered if the democratic process is really a civilized form of scape-goating. Elections are a pressure valve, meaning incumbent parties are ejected from office and fresh faces brought in, albeit often with little change in the policies that caused pressures to build.

api 3y ago
Oh definitely. It allows violent conflict to be replaced by… well… culture wars, and murder with voting people out or maybe legal battles. That’s massively more civilized and avoids destroying all of society’s accumulated wealth in destructive conflicts. Avoiding burning everything to the ground all the time might be the main reason democracies tend to be wealthier.
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  Switzerland was considered a poor country in the 19th century, but didn't get bombed to rubble in either 1914-1918 or 1936-1945, and so now it's considered rich. I wonder how solarpunk continental europe might've been now if it had somehow avoided the "short 20th century (1914-1991)".
082349872349872 3y ago
If one thinks of the democratic process as replacing physical conflict, then gerrymandering can't get too out of hand, because at some point the actual majority will call. If it's just a civilised form of scapegoating, then gerrymandering could potentially reach insanely high levels, as long as it provides a good show (à la Russian Federation elections?) of ritual conflict.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

xotesos 3y ago

The most profound thing I have read is a short mention in I See Satan Fall Like Lighting. Something like the more we become the same , the more we become engulfed in mimetic rivalry. I suspect it sheds quite a bit of light on the modern divide in the US. Not a divide because of differences but because of similarities. Not a fan of Trump to say the least but it also seems rather obvious who is functioning as a the scapegoat mechanism for a large group of people.

082349872349872 3y ago
I agree that he could easily be functioning as a scapegoat mechanism, uniting people who believe "anyone but". As to being an actual scapegoat, I doubt it: scapegoats are innocent. He is accused of being a racist (Central Park 5) misogynist ("Grab em") bigot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX9reO3QnUA#t=16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX9reO3QnUA#t=16) We are apparently a long time removed from 'quoniam meos tam suspicione quam crimine iudico carere oportere'.
- IncreasePosts 3y ago
  Yeah, the central park 5 were innocent but everyone was racist in the 80s if that is the standard. All those poor kids were doing was beating random people, stealing from them, and knocking them out and leaving them for dead to whoever might come along. But they weren't rapists.
  - 082349872349872 3y ago
    Yes, and Trump was happy to judge before any facts came out (also well before the city settled for $41M), based apparently on (a) what he thought had happened, and (b) how he thought the justice system ought to work; most people in the 80s would not have done that. lighter: https://www.theonion.com/trump-takes-out-full-page-newspaper-ad-calling-for-deat-1850299979 https://www.theonion.com/trump-takes-out-full-page-newspaper... darker: http://apps.frontline.org/clinton-trump-keys-to-their-characters/pdf/trump-newspaper.pdf http://apps.frontline.org/clinton-trump-keys-to-their-charac... Note that even in Russia, the death penalty theoretically no longer exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country

pjc50 3y ago

This is great for everyone except the scapegoat. > normal problems are no big deal compared to actual violence Even democratic pro-human-rights societies tolerate quite a lot of violence towards their scapegoats.

082349872349872 3y ago
Compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Omelas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Om...