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Funnily enough, Apple Pay launched in Australia following a multi-year push by local big banks to increase the use of contactless payments. So all the infrastru

by troad 3y ago

Funnily enough, Apple Pay launched in Australia following a multi-year push by local big banks to increase the use of contactless payments. So all the infrastructure was already there, built out by the banks themselves, when Apple came in demanding a US-style cut, as though they built the thing. The local big banks held out for years on supporting Apple Pay, before the customer pressure became too overwhelming and they relented. They're all still very upset about this, and would drop Apple Pay in a second if the NFC chip were forced open by a regulator, but to date they've found it hard to find anyone too sympathetic to a sob story from - well - the nation's biggest banks.

threeseed 3y ago
Everyone along the payment food chain takes a cut so was always surprised that people thought Apple wouldn't. Especially when they are adding a value add on top. And banks are free to drop Apple Pay. Customers will simply move their business to those who do support it. Just like happened when Apple Pay first launched in Australia and banks like Commonwealth Bank held out.
CharlesW 3y ago
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/01/apple-announces-changes-to-ios-safari-and-the-app-store-in-the-european-union/#:~:text=As%20announced%20by%20the%20European,throughout%20the%20European%20Economic%20Area https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/01/apple-announces-chang....
joshl32532 3y ago
> They're all still very upset about this, and would drop Apple Pay in a second if the NFC chip were forced open by a regulator Not if the users have anything to say about that. Canadian banks tried to do their own contactless payment on Android (TD Pay, lol), but nobody wants it. In the end they caved and finally offered Google Pay. I predict it's gonna be similar. Even if Apple opens up NFC payment, nobody will use them and prefer 1st party support like Apple Pay or Google Pay. Just see how many people actually use Samsung pay vs Google Pay.
- Xeamek 3y ago
  To be fair, samsung pay is only avaible in like 10(?) countries. But yeah, point still stands
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    I use Samsung Pay in Spain. I like it because it's better integrated on my phone and more importantly I don't need a Google account for it. I don't even have one set up on my phone. Of course Samsung does see my data this way but they have less info to correlate with. Also I don't use many of their services. I do wish there was a truly open payment solution though that doesn't require me to trust a big tech party.
    - lstamour 3y ago
      > I do wish there was a truly open payment solution though that doesn't require me to trust a big tech party. Cash? Everything else needs a relying party of some kind in order to facilitate the transaction. If it's a credit card or digital wallet, the transaction passes through the credit card or debit card networks, and your info is logged and, depending on laws, potentially re-sold. Don't get me wrong, I sometimes feel like Google shouldn't know my location either, but if my cell carrier already knows my location, I actually trust Google to not resell my location more than my cell carrier - it's worth more to Google if they're the only ones with that information and the same applies to Apple. Another way of putting it, rules and regulations, strictly enforced and updated, is probably the only way to prevent tracking and abuse by legitimate big actors.
      - wkat4242 3y ago
        > If it's a credit card or digital wallet, the transaction passes through the credit card or debit card networks, and your info is logged and, depending on laws, potentially re-sold. The reliance on credit card networks is part of the problem. There's no way to avoid them. And they're all from the US. This causes privacy issues but also moral problems because they tend to block sexually oriented products and services. In Europe a lot of countries are way more progressive than the US. I was hoping bitcoin would become this system but obviously it's been completely hijacked by speculators and its original purpose of control of ones own money has been perverted. There really should be a digital alternative for cash though. It's really silly that we still have to drag around pieces of linen and metal. And no, I don't trust Google for anything at all. I don't want them making money off of me. I also block a lot of ads of course.
MBCook 3y ago
Similarly a ton of retailers in the US hated what Apple did. They came in right as EMV was starting to be mandated and contactless was being installed everywhere, even if it often wasn’t on or working. The banks and retailers all try to make their own thing that they work that way. CurrenC was one, it failed horribly and relied on people taking pictures of QR codes to transfer debit payments, thus avoiding card fees. ApplePay can do debit also. But they didn’t push that. More “we don’t control it so it’s bad” nonsense.
madeofpalk 3y ago
Amusingly, all the Australian banks asked the ACCC for permission to form a cartel and collectively bargain with Apple on Apple Pay terms. They were denied. https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-denies-authorisation-for-banks-to-collectively-bargain-with-apple-and-boycott-apple-pay https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-denies-authorisat...
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  Antitrust usually makes it impossible for smaller companies to combine their market power against the market power of a bigger company.
FridgeSeal 3y ago
Ah yes, the Australian bank impls. Where each bank had their own janky implementation inside their own specific app, which was both slower and had a worse UX. Had a credit (a la Amex) that wasn’t from a major bank? Well womp womp no wireless pay for you. I for one welcome the Australian banks getting put out to the curb on this. The Apple Pay/Wallet experience is genuinely better in just about every single way. I also enjoy the virtualised card number I get with Apple Pay, which I don’t believe any of the Australian banks bothered implementing, presumably because they were all too busy illegally charging dead people, and hiring corrupt ex state PM’s to build anything good.
- cam_l 3y ago
  While I don't exactly disagree, for my own personal selfish reasons, I would prefer to not use the "Big 2" apps. Mainly because my bank doesn't lock me out just because I chose to ~root~ own my device.
- troad 3y ago
  The apps are bad, sure, but it was the banks who heavily pushed contactless EFTPOS terminals out to merchants in Australia. Without those, Apple Pay is a very cute curiosity on your phone, but I hope you remember your PIN because here comes the restaurant's dinosaur card machine. (Or worse, a click-clack card imprinter.)
- ragazzina 3y ago
  > Where each bank had their own janky implementation inside their own specific app, which was both slower and had a worse UX. You obviously understand this is by (Apple's) design.
  - FridgeSeal 3y ago
    I had an Android when the banks were doing this before Google pay took off. The banks are capable of jankiness all by themselves.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
pbh101 3y ago
Apple didn’t create contactless payment infra in the US either. The contactless interface was already there, had its own logo, usable by tap cards, etc. Some retailers eg CVS turned off tap payments when Apple Pay was introduced.
sunnybeetroot 3y ago
I remember pre-Apple pay when banks like NAB offered an NFC sticker you attached to the back of your phone as a “look, just as good as Apple Pay”
knallfrosch 3y ago
Apple strangling the payment API and the App store at the same time is anti-competitive, but as long as noone cares..

by troad 3y ago

threeseed 3y ago

Everyone along the payment food chain takes a cut so was always surprised that people thought Apple wouldn't. Especially when they are adding a value add on top. And banks are free to drop Apple Pay. Customers will simply move their business to those who do support it. Just like happened when Apple Pay first launched in Australia and banks like Commonwealth Bank held out.

CharlesW 3y ago

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/01/apple-announces-changes-to-ios-safari-and-the-app-store-in-the-european-union/#:~:text=As%20announced%20by%20the%20European,throughout%20the%20European%20Economic%20Area https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/01/apple-announces-chang....

joshl32532 3y ago

> They're all still very upset about this, and would drop Apple Pay in a second if the NFC chip were forced open by a regulator Not if the users have anything to say about that. Canadian banks tried to do their own contactless payment on Android (TD Pay, lol), but nobody wants it. In the end they caved and finally offered Google Pay. I predict it's gonna be similar. Even if Apple opens up NFC payment, nobody will use them and prefer 1st party support like Apple Pay or Google Pay. Just see how many people actually use Samsung pay vs Google Pay.

Xeamek 3y ago
To be fair, samsung pay is only avaible in like 10(?) countries. But yeah, point still stands
- wkat4242 3y ago
  I use Samsung Pay in Spain. I like it because it's better integrated on my phone and more importantly I don't need a Google account for it. I don't even have one set up on my phone. Of course Samsung does see my data this way but they have less info to correlate with. Also I don't use many of their services. I do wish there was a truly open payment solution though that doesn't require me to trust a big tech party.
  - lstamour 3y ago
    > I do wish there was a truly open payment solution though that doesn't require me to trust a big tech party. Cash? Everything else needs a relying party of some kind in order to facilitate the transaction. If it's a credit card or digital wallet, the transaction passes through the credit card or debit card networks, and your info is logged and, depending on laws, potentially re-sold. Don't get me wrong, I sometimes feel like Google shouldn't know my location either, but if my cell carrier already knows my location, I actually trust Google to not resell my location more than my cell carrier - it's worth more to Google if they're the only ones with that information and the same applies to Apple. Another way of putting it, rules and regulations, strictly enforced and updated, is probably the only way to prevent tracking and abuse by legitimate big actors.
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      > If it's a credit card or digital wallet, the transaction passes through the credit card or debit card networks, and your info is logged and, depending on laws, potentially re-sold. The reliance on credit card networks is part of the problem. There's no way to avoid them. And they're all from the US. This causes privacy issues but also moral problems because they tend to block sexually oriented products and services. In Europe a lot of countries are way more progressive than the US. I was hoping bitcoin would become this system but obviously it's been completely hijacked by speculators and its original purpose of control of ones own money has been perverted. There really should be a digital alternative for cash though. It's really silly that we still have to drag around pieces of linen and metal. And no, I don't trust Google for anything at all. I don't want them making money off of me. I also block a lot of ads of course.

MBCook 3y ago

Similarly a ton of retailers in the US hated what Apple did. They came in right as EMV was starting to be mandated and contactless was being installed everywhere, even if it often wasn’t on or working. The banks and retailers all try to make their own thing that they work that way. CurrenC was one, it failed horribly and relied on people taking pictures of QR codes to transfer debit payments, thus avoiding card fees. ApplePay can do debit also. But they didn’t push that. More “we don’t control it so it’s bad” nonsense.

madeofpalk 3y ago

Amusingly, all the Australian banks asked the ACCC for permission to form a cartel and collectively bargain with Apple on Apple Pay terms. They were denied. https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-denies-authorisation-for-banks-to-collectively-bargain-with-apple-and-boycott-apple-pay https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-denies-authorisat...

amadeuspagel 3y ago
Antitrust usually makes it impossible for smaller companies to combine their market power against the market power of a bigger company.

FridgeSeal 3y ago

Ah yes, the Australian bank impls. Where each bank had their own janky implementation inside their own specific app, which was both slower and had a worse UX. Had a credit (a la Amex) that wasn’t from a major bank? Well womp womp no wireless pay for you. I for one welcome the Australian banks getting put out to the curb on this. The Apple Pay/Wallet experience is genuinely better in just about every single way. I also enjoy the virtualised card number I get with Apple Pay, which I don’t believe any of the Australian banks bothered implementing, presumably because they were all too busy illegally charging dead people, and hiring corrupt ex state PM’s to build anything good.

cam_l 3y ago
While I don't exactly disagree, for my own personal selfish reasons, I would prefer to not use the "Big 2" apps. Mainly because my bank doesn't lock me out just because I chose to ~root~ own my device.
troad 3y ago
The apps are bad, sure, but it was the banks who heavily pushed contactless EFTPOS terminals out to merchants in Australia. Without those, Apple Pay is a very cute curiosity on your phone, but I hope you remember your PIN because here comes the restaurant's dinosaur card machine. (Or worse, a click-clack card imprinter.)
ragazzina 3y ago
> Where each bank had their own janky implementation inside their own specific app, which was both slower and had a worse UX. You obviously understand this is by (Apple's) design.
- FridgeSeal 3y ago
  I had an Android when the banks were doing this before Google pay took off. The banks are capable of jankiness all by themselves.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

pbh101 3y ago

Apple didn’t create contactless payment infra in the US either. The contactless interface was already there, had its own logo, usable by tap cards, etc. Some retailers eg CVS turned off tap payments when Apple Pay was introduced.

sunnybeetroot 3y ago

I remember pre-Apple pay when banks like NAB offered an NFC sticker you attached to the back of your phone as a “look, just as good as Apple Pay”

knallfrosch 3y ago

Apple strangling the payment API and the App store at the same time is anti-competitive, but as long as noone cares..