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> I highly doubt any banks or credit card issuers would do this themselves if given access to NFC tap-to-pay. Birchler points out that the banks did do this.

> I highly doubt any banks or credit card issuers would do this themselves if given access to NFC tap-to-pay. Birchler points out that the banks did do this. And Gruber has acknowledged his mistake. Gruber is an open fanboi but for the most part he would at least get his facts straight and would be open about what he didn’t understand and would link to experts in the field. However, since the EU DMA actions on Apple he seems to have completely lost his objectivity. First by pretending to understand the legalese better than apparently the EC does, then by applying American lawmaking approaches to European ones which are very different and then finally by taking Apple’s bad faith statements at face value (Gruber’s turn has coincided with Apple’s very weird bad faith approach to the EU so maybe the fundamental issue is his trust in Apple). And he seems to be carrying over that to the U.S. govt’s antitrust action as well. Also, to be fair, social media is absolutely filled with Apple people pretending to be legal experts but being completely wrong about almost everything. So it might be hard for him to even see opposing viewpoints from legitimate folks.

madeofpalk 3y ago
Gruber never pretends to be objective - he likes what he likes, and he dislikes what he dislikes. Notably, he has a pretty strong "pro-business" streak in him that objects to anything resembeling workers rights or unions, and government regulation/interference in businesses. The EU tends to do a lot of that, so overall he's very critical of it. And at the moment there's a lot of governments telling Apple what to do, so it's the perfect storm of getting his knickers in a twist constantly.
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  [flagged]
- kemayo 3y ago
  I don't think I've seen him do opposition to workers rights / unions? He hasn't been constantly yelling about supporting them either, but that's different. E.g. a quick google for "daring fireball unions" turned up mostly articles like this one which were pro union-demands: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/11/24/wirecutter-union https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/11/24/wirecutter-unio... Closest to a negative I found in that quick search was him making fun of the Maryland Apple Store union that was asking to be allowed to request tips from Apple Store customers... while also saying that the rest of their demands sounded like good things to ask for.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    Oh man I had forgotten about that.
ineedaj0b 3y ago
I think you should reconsider your judgement on the EU ruling being good. If you can’t argue the EU ruling is bad (and not because Apple is greedy or shortsighted etc), you are missing something. Apple has a vision - the EU has a vision and they do not align. The EU is poor. It has been mismanaging itself for years: they should be doing better than they are. Is this caused by outside vectors or the leadership, or maybe the structure (too many cooks in EU kitchen)? Is the vision of the world the EU wants 15-25 years out strong? Is the world the EU would create good for the EU - 30 years out? I’d argue it’d be a comfortable one. But a poor and weaker one. I’m not trying to defend Apple. I’m trying to say that the EU leadership is likely bad - my hunch is anyone truly good would work in the state department of the respective nation. Kinda like how UN ambassadors for the US are never our best - our best maybe might once in a blue moon take the post like a retirement phase. Now take the ruling, are you sure they made a smart long term move?
- TillE 3y ago
  I don't know what "ruling" you're talking about. The DMA is a law, and it will be enforced despite Apple pretending to comply with it. There's nothing like a judicial proceeding as yet, much less a ruling. This really underscores the point, and it's not just Gruber and random internet commenters opining on EU law while having zero clue about it, it's also Apple fans I respect like John Siracusa and Jason Snell who have a lot of opinions without familiarizing themselves with the facts.
  - chrisfinazzo 3y ago
    Gruber had Jason as his guest on the last episode of The Talk Show, just to give some context to both of their arguments. At the very least, they seem to agree that issues with the DMA - and the US DOJ case - stem from the idea that these lawmakers fundamentally misunderstand Apple's approach and why customers choose iOS, macOS, etc. Tl;dr, the integration is the point and these legal challenges pose the idea that this approach doesn't comport with the law as written and should be disallowed.
    - p_l 3y ago
scarface_74 3y ago
Have you actually looked into the claims of the US case? Some of their statements are completely incorrect and they don’t even try to address what most commenters on HN seem to care about He and Ben Thompson are very consistent. If the government wants changes in the way that Apple and other tech companies operate - pass laws - like they did in the EU instead of trying to make up definitions and facts based on a law that was passed almost 100 years ago
- addicted 3y ago
  Yes I have. But that’s completely irrelevant because I’m not a lawyer. Ben Thompson and Gruber are not lawyers. Lawyers I’ve followed have not found any mistakes though they do think some stuff is pushing it, but that’s completely normal and how all such cases work. You have a core case on which you add a bunch of stuff. Because, one, you expect stuff to get thrown out, but more importantly these cases are rarely litigated to the end. They’re settled. So you put more in, even the slightly weaker stuff, so you can compromise on it during negotiations. I wouldn’t have know this stuff, which is why I don’t pretend to know this stuff. Unlike Gruber and Thomson. Instead I follow lawyers online and speak to friends who are lawyers who have a better idea of what’s going on. The ridiculous part of Gruber’s assertions is because he hears about these things only when Apple is involved he seems to think they are unique or new. That’s why his insinuations in a couple of posts that the EU actions were to punish American companies and protect European ones. If he had half a clue about this area he would have known that the EU has fined way more European companies than it has companies from the rest of the world put together.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    However, Andrew Sharp, Ben’s cohost on SharpTech was a lawyer and he also says that the judicial system is not the way to go and they should pass laws. But you don’t have to be a lawyer to know the statements of fact are in correct as far as the technology. They also condemned EUs ruling against Facebook where Facebook can’t even give users a choice of having an ad free experience by paying. I have no problem paying money for stuff I want. I think that’s an honest transaction. On Dithering, Gruber commended the EU for actually passing a simple law forcing Apple to open up NFC and the USB C mandate for iPhones instead of dragging it through some arcane legal doctrine. He didn’t necessarily agree with the law. But it was at least straightforward and honest. But even if you aren’t a lawyer - the things that most HN users care about were not addressed at all in the lawsuit. For instance there is no mention of the App Store at all except concerning NFC, cloud gaming (that Apple has already addressed) and whatever apps are called with other embedded apps. And no one in the Apple commentary community thinks the anti steering provision for Spotify and Kindle and Netflix etc is legitimate nor the former ban on cloud gaming. Right now I’m listening to the Talk Show podcast with Gruber and Jason Snell (former editor in chief of Macworld) and they aren’t giving Apple a pass at all for the three items I mentioned

madeofpalk 3y ago

Gruber never pretends to be objective - he likes what he likes, and he dislikes what he dislikes. Notably, he has a pretty strong "pro-business" streak in him that objects to anything resembeling workers rights or unions, and government regulation/interference in businesses. The EU tends to do a lot of that, so overall he's very critical of it. And at the moment there's a lot of governments telling Apple what to do, so it's the perfect storm of getting his knickers in a twist constantly.

lnxg33k1 3y ago
[flagged]
kemayo 3y ago
I don't think I've seen him do opposition to workers rights / unions? He hasn't been constantly yelling about supporting them either, but that's different. E.g. a quick google for "daring fireball unions" turned up mostly articles like this one which were pro union-demands: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/11/24/wirecutter-union https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/11/24/wirecutter-unio... Closest to a negative I found in that quick search was him making fun of the Maryland Apple Store union that was asking to be allowed to request tips from Apple Store customers... while also saying that the rest of their demands sounded like good things to ask for.
- MBCook 3y ago
  Oh man I had forgotten about that.

ineedaj0b 3y ago

I think you should reconsider your judgement on the EU ruling being good. If you can’t argue the EU ruling is bad (and not because Apple is greedy or shortsighted etc), you are missing something. Apple has a vision - the EU has a vision and they do not align. The EU is poor. It has been mismanaging itself for years: they should be doing better than they are. Is this caused by outside vectors or the leadership, or maybe the structure (too many cooks in EU kitchen)? Is the vision of the world the EU wants 15-25 years out strong? Is the world the EU would create good for the EU - 30 years out? I’d argue it’d be a comfortable one. But a poor and weaker one. I’m not trying to defend Apple. I’m trying to say that the EU leadership is likely bad - my hunch is anyone truly good would work in the state department of the respective nation. Kinda like how UN ambassadors for the US are never our best - our best maybe might once in a blue moon take the post like a retirement phase. Now take the ruling, are you sure they made a smart long term move?

TillE 3y ago
I don't know what "ruling" you're talking about. The DMA is a law, and it will be enforced despite Apple pretending to comply with it. There's nothing like a judicial proceeding as yet, much less a ruling. This really underscores the point, and it's not just Gruber and random internet commenters opining on EU law while having zero clue about it, it's also Apple fans I respect like John Siracusa and Jason Snell who have a lot of opinions without familiarizing themselves with the facts.
- chrisfinazzo 3y ago
  Gruber had Jason as his guest on the last episode of The Talk Show, just to give some context to both of their arguments. At the very least, they seem to agree that issues with the DMA - and the US DOJ case - stem from the idea that these lawmakers fundamentally misunderstand Apple's approach and why customers choose iOS, macOS, etc. Tl;dr, the integration is the point and these legal challenges pose the idea that this approach doesn't comport with the law as written and should be disallowed.
  - p_l 3y ago

scarface_74 3y ago

Have you actually looked into the claims of the US case? Some of their statements are completely incorrect and they don’t even try to address what most commenters on HN seem to care about He and Ben Thompson are very consistent. If the government wants changes in the way that Apple and other tech companies operate - pass laws - like they did in the EU instead of trying to make up definitions and facts based on a law that was passed almost 100 years ago

addicted 3y ago
Yes I have. But that’s completely irrelevant because I’m not a lawyer. Ben Thompson and Gruber are not lawyers. Lawyers I’ve followed have not found any mistakes though they do think some stuff is pushing it, but that’s completely normal and how all such cases work. You have a core case on which you add a bunch of stuff. Because, one, you expect stuff to get thrown out, but more importantly these cases are rarely litigated to the end. They’re settled. So you put more in, even the slightly weaker stuff, so you can compromise on it during negotiations. I wouldn’t have know this stuff, which is why I don’t pretend to know this stuff. Unlike Gruber and Thomson. Instead I follow lawyers online and speak to friends who are lawyers who have a better idea of what’s going on. The ridiculous part of Gruber’s assertions is because he hears about these things only when Apple is involved he seems to think they are unique or new. That’s why his insinuations in a couple of posts that the EU actions were to punish American companies and protect European ones. If he had half a clue about this area he would have known that the EU has fined way more European companies than it has companies from the rest of the world put together.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  However, Andrew Sharp, Ben’s cohost on SharpTech was a lawyer and he also says that the judicial system is not the way to go and they should pass laws. But you don’t have to be a lawyer to know the statements of fact are in correct as far as the technology. They also condemned EUs ruling against Facebook where Facebook can’t even give users a choice of having an ad free experience by paying. I have no problem paying money for stuff I want. I think that’s an honest transaction. On Dithering, Gruber commended the EU for actually passing a simple law forcing Apple to open up NFC and the USB C mandate for iPhones instead of dragging it through some arcane legal doctrine. He didn’t necessarily agree with the law. But it was at least straightforward and honest. But even if you aren’t a lawyer - the things that most HN users care about were not addressed at all in the lawsuit. For instance there is no mention of the App Store at all except concerning NFC, cloud gaming (that Apple has already addressed) and whatever apps are called with other embedded apps. And no one in the Apple commentary community thinks the anti steering provision for Spotify and Kindle and Netflix etc is legitimate nor the former ban on cloud gaming. Right now I’m listening to the Talk Show podcast with Gruber and Jason Snell (former editor in chief of Macworld) and they aren’t giving Apple a pass at all for the three items I mentioned