6 ms·

Say hello to the real real-time Web

94 points by mayop100 14y ago

hising 14y ago
I think Battlelog (http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/gate/ http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/gate/), Battlefields community, running on real time framework Planet (http://www.planetframework.com/ http://www.planetframework.com/) is a good example on how real time web apps should be built. Client side rendering, live updating surfaces via "WebSockets". Nice to see this getting more coverage, I think it is a knowledge web developers must learn to master, or at least learn best practices for real time patterns. Interesting times indeed.
- Sargis 14y ago
  Here's Armin Ronacher talking about the structure of Battlelog. http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2011/11/15/modern-web-applications-are-here/ http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2011/11/15/modern-web-applications-a...
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
pestaa 14y ago
And because the framework is based on Node.js, developers don't have to worry about connection issues or scale. Err, no. It might be better for open connections, but nothing is worry-free ever. Also, I don't buy the selling point "hey this is a new tech so you don't have to learn any tech!". What is this rush to introduce new stuff to solve the problem of too many? And why push it harder by stating not only the big guys can do this? Nobody should do it only because Twitter or Google do it. It's not like I wouldn't use real-time solutions, but this article did sound like "let's find a use for this new thing."
silentbicycle 14y ago
Real-time means something specific: every operation has a hard limit for upper bounded time. I'm working on an embedded system right now; they typically cannot use garbage collection, because any GC pauses will utterly destroy the project's real-time guarantees. This board's microprocessor has an external hardware watchdog, which reboots the whole system unless I reset a timer every 2.5 msec or less. This is a reasonable limit, because if the program is unresponsive for too long, people may die. (It's automotive hardware.) I think calling anything running in Javascript and across a network "real-time" is a bit misleading. What you mean is "soft real-time", which is far more forgiving.
- starwed 14y ago
  The phrase "real-time" means something very different to most people. When you try to "correct" them by invoking a narrow definition only used within a particular domain, it just comes across as pointless pedantry.
  - silentbicycle 14y ago
    I agree it sounds pedantic, but think about how muddled discussions areabout what "object-oriented programming" means. "real-time" is a well-established term and actually means something really specific. Diluting it doesn't benefit anyone.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - lobo_tuerto 14y ago
      So there can only be one meaning? No different meaning depending on the context? ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time I'd say this is real-time in the context of the interwebs, against the usual request-response cycle.
- pilgrim689 14y ago
  Sys admins have been weeping but slowly getting over the abuse of "cloud" for a while now... safety-critical software engineers will have a shoulder to cry on! In all seriousness, there's a range of of real-time systems (soft to hard) and systems that contain a mix of these requirements. You can argue that these new "real-time!" javascript systems are soft real-time systems. i.e. they contain a soft real-time constraint for state to propagate to clients before a deadline, after which the system starts losing its quality.
- mayop100 14y ago
  (Firebase founder here) I used to work for an RTOS company, so I do understand where you are coming from. Real-time has different meanings in different contexts though. For an operating system it means hard guarantees on response times. Over a public network this is impossible, so it instead means that data is being pushed to clients as quickly as possible. The "soft real-time" phrasing might be accurate, but it is a distinction that is probably not helpful, as I think it would confuse more people than it would help, and people in the RTOS world know the difference anyways.
digamber_kamat 14y ago
Please use the word "real-time" as it is used in CS literature. Or use soft real time when you just mean fast.
- bergie 14y ago
  I kind of like the term live web for what the article describes
northisup 14y ago
This article is so full of platitudes and buzzwords it is embarrassing.
chj 14y ago
am i the only one fooled? say hello to websockets might be a better title.
MarkPNeyer 14y ago
there's nothing "leading edge" about much in web development. the algorithmic trading crowd has been doing this for years.
downvoteme 14y ago
I'd like to see a real-time OS that was an easy to set up and had the hardware and software support of Linux/BSD. Sometimes I want to be able to estimate how long a job is going to take.
comex 14y ago
Meteor and Firebase and other novel web app frameworks are one thing... MMO Asteroids, or any multiplayer game, is another. Game developers have been doing multiplayer for a very long time; the frameworks promise to blur the line between client and server, but MMO Asteroids is still trivial with traditional client-server code, without any funky security model, making it a bit of an odd showcase. Anyway, I doubt those frameworks have lag compensation (https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking#Lag_compensation https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_...), so good luck avoiding jitter :)

94 points by mayop100 14y ago

I think Battlelog (http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/gate/ http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/gate/), Battlefields community, running on real time framework Planet (http://www.planetframework.com/ http://www.planetframework.com/) is a good example on how real time web apps should be built. Client side rendering, live updating surfaces via "WebSockets". Nice to see this getting more coverage, I think it is a knowledge web developers must learn to master, or at least learn best practices for real time patterns. Interesting times indeed.

Sargis 14y ago
Here's Armin Ronacher talking about the structure of Battlelog. http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2011/11/15/modern-web-applications-are-here/ http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2011/11/15/modern-web-applications-a...

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

pestaa 14y ago

And because the framework is based on Node.js, developers don't have to worry about connection issues or scale. Err, no. It might be better for open connections, but nothing is worry-free ever. Also, I don't buy the selling point "hey this is a new tech so you don't have to learn any tech!". What is this rush to introduce new stuff to solve the problem of too many? And why push it harder by stating not only the big guys can do this? Nobody should do it only because Twitter or Google do it. It's not like I wouldn't use real-time solutions, but this article did sound like "let's find a use for this new thing."

silentbicycle 14y ago

Real-time means something specific: every operation has a hard limit for upper bounded time. I'm working on an embedded system right now; they typically cannot use garbage collection, because any GC pauses will utterly destroy the project's real-time guarantees. This board's microprocessor has an external hardware watchdog, which reboots the whole system unless I reset a timer every 2.5 msec or less. This is a reasonable limit, because if the program is unresponsive for too long, people may die. (It's automotive hardware.) I think calling anything running in Javascript and across a network "real-time" is a bit misleading. What you mean is "soft real-time", which is far more forgiving.

starwed 14y ago
The phrase "real-time" means something very different to most people. When you try to "correct" them by invoking a narrow definition only used within a particular domain, it just comes across as pointless pedantry.
- silentbicycle 14y ago
  I agree it sounds pedantic, but think about how muddled discussions areabout what "object-oriented programming" means. "real-time" is a well-established term and actually means something really specific. Diluting it doesn't benefit anyone.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - lobo_tuerto 14y ago
    So there can only be one meaning? No different meaning depending on the context? ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time I'd say this is real-time in the context of the interwebs, against the usual request-response cycle.
pilgrim689 14y ago
Sys admins have been weeping but slowly getting over the abuse of "cloud" for a while now... safety-critical software engineers will have a shoulder to cry on! In all seriousness, there's a range of of real-time systems (soft to hard) and systems that contain a mix of these requirements. You can argue that these new "real-time!" javascript systems are soft real-time systems. i.e. they contain a soft real-time constraint for state to propagate to clients before a deadline, after which the system starts losing its quality.
mayop100 14y ago
(Firebase founder here) I used to work for an RTOS company, so I do understand where you are coming from. Real-time has different meanings in different contexts though. For an operating system it means hard guarantees on response times. Over a public network this is impossible, so it instead means that data is being pushed to clients as quickly as possible. The "soft real-time" phrasing might be accurate, but it is a distinction that is probably not helpful, as I think it would confuse more people than it would help, and people in the RTOS world know the difference anyways.

digamber_kamat 14y ago

Please use the word "real-time" as it is used in CS literature. Or use soft real time when you just mean fast.

bergie 14y ago
I kind of like the term live web for what the article describes

northisup 14y ago

This article is so full of platitudes and buzzwords it is embarrassing.

chj 14y ago

am i the only one fooled? say hello to websockets might be a better title.

MarkPNeyer 14y ago

there's nothing "leading edge" about much in web development. the algorithmic trading crowd has been doing this for years.

downvoteme 14y ago

I'd like to see a real-time OS that was an easy to set up and had the hardware and software support of Linux/BSD. Sometimes I want to be able to estimate how long a job is going to take.

comex 14y ago

Meteor and Firebase and other novel web app frameworks are one thing... MMO Asteroids, or any multiplayer game, is another. Game developers have been doing multiplayer for a very long time; the frameworks promise to blur the line between client and server, but MMO Asteroids is still trivial with traditional client-server code, without any funky security model, making it a bit of an odd showcase. Anyway, I doubt those frameworks have lag compensation (https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking#Lag_compensation https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_...), so good luck avoiding jitter :)