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I grew up in a very poor socioeconomic situation and became an SWE. The largest challenge wasn't learning the skills. The hardest challenge was throwing away my
by metalforever 3y ago
I grew up in a very poor socioeconomic situation and became an SWE. The largest challenge wasn't learning the skills. The hardest challenge was throwing away my culture and hiding who I am to get the bills paid. It was also knowing the "correct" socially-coded answers to things, and being able to keep up the upper-class disguise well-enough over long periods. When people discover or figure it out, they discriminate against you in subconscious ways and exclude you.
- iopq 3y agoI grew up in a family who couldn't afford coffee so we drank roasted barley for years. But then we moved to the US and my family became middle class. I'm fairly well-off now, but I'm not sure if I was advantaged by being an immigrant or not.
- dehrmann 3y agoI'm genuinely curious what things you feel like you have to hide. I'm fortunate enough to come from a decent socioeconomic situation, but I still feel like I'm not my "full self" (whatever that even means) at work in interest of team cohesion.
- metalforever 3y agoPretty much everything. When people ask my opinion on anything, they don't want my opinion, they want an opinion from their class perspective. When they want to know how my holiday was, no they don't. When I am supposed to have visited my family from context (or it's weird if I didn't), yeah I did. I am not allowed to wear things people of my class find professional. I am not allowed to discuss what I really did on my time off (it was a punk show or something like this, probably). This is not even getting into issues where a lot of people let actual class discrimination fly live in the office, overtly insult people from my background, or say things about being scared regarding being near section 8 people. I could go on for a long time.
- NegativeLatency 3y agoI would be interested in hearing about someone’s experience at a punk show.
- seandoe 3y agoThis seems like a pretty dark take. It may be accurate, but seems unlikely or at least incomplete. Even if it was accurate, viewing the world through such a myopic lens isn't going to help you or anybody else. A therapist might be able to help you out, if you're looking for it.
- dvaun 3y agoHow is your takeaway that their personal encounters are “unlikely”? This was an anecdote in response to a question asking for examples of their experiences, not a soapbox professing a dim take on the world.
- Der_Einzige 3y agoTelling people with a broadly accurate view that they need therapy is evidence itself that you need therapy.
- seandoe 3y agoI disagree that op has a "broadly accurate view". That's the entire point of my response. I didn't say they needed therapy. I suggested therapy might help them if they're looking to improve this "view".
- nycemb 3y ago[flagged]
- TeaDrunk 3y agoOne of the biggest indicators to me, as someone who has navigated such lines before, is how comfortable co-workers are with waste. A co-worker who takes catered food home (without saying something like, "oh I have 3 growing teenagers" or something else to excuse it) is low-class. Do you keep the little sauce packets, napkins, disposable cutlery, etc. from take-out? Low class. Do you keep the pencils and notepads etc. from places? Low. Class. Also this causes you to need to have a place to store all these things, and now you fulfill the stereotype of a poor, messy person. Minimalism, aka the confidence to be able to acquire anything you may need at the moment with resources always available to you, is a class indicator.
- gnicholas 3y agoWhen I was in law school I went out to many work lunches and dinners during the recruiting season. I was impressed by one firm — made up mostly of biglaw refugees — that took the leftover food at the end of the meal. It stood out in contrast to the normal practice, which was to spend $65 per person on lunch (20 years ago), and leave 1/3 of it on the table. I chose to intern at the firm that took the leftovers.
- TeaDrunk 3y agoI noticed you didn't bring up them also taking napkins, sauce packets, sugar and creamer, cutlery etc. You either already were eating at wealthy enough places (metal cutlery + real cloth napkins) that this wasn't an opportunity for you & that was itself a class indicator, or you were focused on one thing (taking food home) and missing the bigger picture. Of course each individual action of preventing waste isn't a 100% indicator for having grown up in poverty. Low-waste is arguably fashionable, even. But being low-waste is different from acquiring and retaining arbitrary stuff to use later in place of things you can just buy when you need it. Buying a reusable straw is different from keeping every disposable straw you're given, same as buying a reusable bag is different from keeping every takeout/grocery plastic one. The house of my parents displays my impoverished childhood clearly-- it is a place of incredible resourcefulness using all the things people normally refuse to acquire or throw away if given to them.
- carlosjobim 3y ago> who I am Who you are is a software engineer that gets the bills paid. Why would it be a "disguise" to act like upper class and not a disguise to act like lower class? If you weren't upper class you could never pretend to be it over long periods. Just face reality of who you are and have become. Your past is no more "the real you" than your present. You and me and everybody reading this grew up walking around in diapers, that doesn't mean that it is the "real us". It's just the past, it's gone, good bye.
- metalforever 3y agoI am sorry, it is hard to explain the issue . It's not like this. I do have to pretend to be it over long periods.
- Dalewyn 3y agoThe brutal reality is people tend to discriminate those in a different social class. It's nothing as blatant as Indian Caste, but it's reality. This goes both ways too, upper discriminating lower and vice versa, and it transcends cultures. For a practical example, nearly every single Black man who succeed(ed) in America doesn't speak so-called "Negro English", they all speak "normal" English. President Obama is perhaps the most familiar example. I have no doubt at least some of this is them putting on an act to demonstrate they are in the same social class as their would-be peers. And on the other side of that coin, lower class Black men generally disparage characteristics of the higher classes such as being educated and carrying yourself more formally. For better or worse, if you want to join a different social class you have to put up some act to get your foot in the door. Otherwise you'll be kicked right out. It's brutally unfortunate, but humans (and all living beings in general) prefer those who are alike and disdain those who aren't. Hell, the audience here should look at themselves in a mirror: White shirt upper-middle class discriminating the elite upper class and the commonly middle and lower classes is everywhere. Screw those MBAs, amirite? The problem is Joe over there doesn't understand tech, amirite?
- carlosjobim 3y agoYou're not getting it. The "act" becomes you, you become the "act". The commenter I answered is not from a different social class anymore, he's just remembering. Just as you "act" grown up when you're growing up, then gradually you are grown up and that is you. And Obama? What makes you believe he would speak "Negro English"? He is not from that background. The truth is that people can't really join a different social class without fundamentally belonging to that class. And belonging to a class depends on what you presently do and have, not what you did or had in your past. If the commenter was not a software engineer, no acting of his could fool people for a long time. With the exception for expert con-men. So even though he might feel as if he's faking it, the part that really counts is real.
- blaufast 3y agoThis is very well put. Values, the roots, are so different they bear different fruit. Learning the new fruit and reverse engineering its roots you become aware of what most never do. You are a fish that discovers water. Scarcity and abundance are so different that unless you’ve experienced both you really will not understand. Becoming a SWE changed all of this for me and I’ve noticed the culture, especially in FAANG is so wealthy.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- 48864w6ui 3y agoIn Down and Out... Orwell says waitstaff are bigger snobs than the clientele. This observation goes for more than food service.
- throw1234651234 3y agoSWEs are not a tier where people care about your class much if you have the skills, speak professionally, and appear professional. Just don't talk about yourself. "How are you?" "Good". Yes, no one cares about you or your problems, but that's just work. If you are aiming for director positions, yea, it's different story. Pro-tip - it won't be enough to pretend, they are mostly all related or went to the same school, worked together before, etc. So acting the same won't help much either. In other words, as a SWE, you are blowing this way out of proportion.
- eBombzor 3y agoYeah I don't know what these people are talking about. Some of the people I've met are as care free as it gets. Wonder if most of what people "experience" is imagined here.
- metalforever 3y agoYes, I made it up, obviously.
- hackable_sand 3y agoThis sounds familiar, but if you're masking to class up it's just gonna burn you out and alienate others. If you feel that pressure just practice what you should for all people: empathy. Listen and ask questions before you speak. This goes with all crowds. Be curious and find the common ground first. Everyone has some, regardless of class.
- erikerikson 3y agoThis sounds like a way to socially bridge and also make the discrimination more certain.
- geraldhh 3y agoemphatic and socially active ppl tend not to be discriminated
- erikerikson 3y agoChecks out. I have observed discrimination on those dimensions.
- kjkjadksj 3y agoDo you even want to keep company with people who would discriminate you for being poor? Seems thats actually a useful signal to who is worth giving time and energy towards in your own life. Screw them, in other words, rather than feel like you need to put on a mask to appease these terrible people. If you work for these types then either harden yourself to their opinions of you or find other people to work for who aren’t classist bigots.
- silent_cal 3y agoGive me a break. Try telling everyone you voted for Trump and see where that gets you.
- jfrbfbreudh 3y agoWhy does this matter when your colleagues are now likely currently in the same strata as you? I also grew up very poor and while I tried to hide that fact during university, it makes no sense to hide it from my colleagues because we’re all basically in the same position now.
- alphanumeric0 3y agoA good SWE salary doesn't necessarily elevate you to the same strata anymore. Most of the programmers I work with have parents that supported them, especially monetarily. I myself, could not rely on either parent. Well-off parents can help you with a down payment on a house, be a better present grandparent, and be a reliable source of financial support in hard times. For most people in these well-paid positions, a job doesn't guarantee buying a house anymore, or a stable future. Only generational wealth does.