24 ms·

A lavish lifestyle strains credibility (1985)

114 points by class3shock 3y ago

yakito 3y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20240329125152/https://www.chicagotribune.com/1985/12/02/a-lavish-lifestyle-strains-credibility/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240329125152/https://www.chica...
- ClearAndPresent 3y ago
  https://archive.is/Ikgw8 https://archive.is/Ikgw8
abeppu 3y ago
> A federal grand jury in New York indicted Veliotis in 1983 on 17 counts of fraud and perjury, and he is being sought as a fugitive from this prosecution. He lives in Athens. > Top Navy officials acknowledged after Veliotis fled that they had were worried that he might compromise national security, and a major internal investigation was conducted to determine how much information he might have. Its results have not been made public. I wonder if anyone knows -- why was he able to hide out in Greece? Apparently the US had an extradition treaty in place with Greece since the 1930s. Especially if he was a security liability, you'd think the US would have greater than normal motivation to pursue extradition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradition_treaties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradit...
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  Greece isn't as tidy when it comes to administration; I wouldn't be surprised if he lives in relative comfort in a house under someone else's name, and nobody official comes to check.
  - dirtyhippiefree 3y ago
    >Greece isn't as tidy when it comes to administration. Bingo. Winning by becoming invisible.
- smnrchrds 3y ago
  I don't know about Greece, but many countries do not extradite their own citizens to other countries, and include the provision that they can refuse extradition of their citizens in their treaties. France is one such country, hence Roman Polanski. Greece-Canada treaty has this provision too, so I suspect Greece is similar. > The Requested State shall not be required to extradite its own nationals. Nationality shall be determined as at the time of the offence for which extradition is requested. https://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=103324 https://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=103324
  - keybored 3y ago
    This is only surprising because it’s the US. I mean if the US security apparatus says “national security” all of the allies are supposed to drop everything and send them on the first military plane back across the Atlantic.
    - Ylpertnodi 3y ago
      Like that US woman who killed a kid in the UK would be extradited? I guess lucky her hubby was in Intel and the UK cops were bamboozled.
  - jajko 3y ago
    Polanski spent decades in Switzerland (small luxury ski resort Gstaad), not so much France. I dont claim to know the details of his case, but setup above is generally not uncommon, swiss even have special residency permit for folks bringing millions+ into the country, no need for pesky jobs like us peasants.
- tokai 3y ago
  Must have concluded that he didn't know anything really compromising. Else he'd just get an extraordinary rendition.
  - abeppu 3y ago
    I thought extraordinary rendition was a) started later and aimed at "terrorists" (and it seems hard to argue that this guy is in that category) b) used to take people to black sites in 3rd countries, not to face charges or detention in the US ... and because of its dubious status under international law, it seems like it would be not a good look as a response to corruption issues?
- Ylpertnodi 3y ago
  If Greece is anti-death penalty and there would be a chance of that, they would not extradite.
  - abeppu 3y ago
    > A federal grand jury in New York indicted Veliotis in 1983 on 17 counts of fraud and perjury Hold up, even the US doesn't do the death penalty for fraud and perjury right?
    - philwelch 3y ago
      Correct. This isn’t a death penalty case.
- class3shock 3y ago
  There is mention in one of the articles he received "limited immunity" for providing evidence, which could have helped him avoid a more aggressive effort to get him. Or maybe they just didn't think the spectacle that would have been his trial was in anyones best interest. Or if you want to get more conspiratorial, he could have been hanging onto these as a negotiating tool: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP91-00561R000100020048-7.pdf https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP91-00561R0001000...
JasonFruit 3y ago
My immediate reaction is to doubt some of this: isn't it what you'd expect to read about someone who agrees to testify against a well-funded, well-connected defense contractor? It was a time when the press was the undisputed king of information. But then I read that the case against General Dynamics fizzled and the one against Veliotis did not; maybe I should look at it as a caution against excessive skepticism.
- metabagel 3y ago
  You should have some basis for skepticism, especially in light of all the research which was done for this article.
noobermin 3y ago
With stories like this, it's surprising the US even "won" the cold war. It feels much more like the Soviet Union collapsed than the US won.
- luxuryballs 3y ago
  I think that’s exactly what happened and also strikes me as the only way to win a cold war short of surrender.
- wpietri 3y ago
  I'm far from an expert, but my understanding is that the USSR was well more corrupt at the time. Something that provided a firm foundation for Russia's current situation, with Putin as gangster-in-chief: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/03/13/alexei-navalny-yulia-navalnaya-putin-russia-election/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/03/13/alexei-na...
  - bboygravity 3y ago
    Impossible to say since it's impossible to measure corruption in the US without actual practical access to information.
    - wpietri 3y ago
      It's impossible to say definitely, something that's true for quite a lot of topics, but that doesn't mean there's nothing useful to be said. E.g., Transparency International's corruption index.
  - pphysch 3y ago
    Is there any actual evidence that Putin is actively corrupt on the level of say Jared Kushner or Hunter Biden (and their father figures), or is it just kinda an a priori thing so we can pat ourselves on the back?
    - metabagel 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
zachmu 3y ago
I read a non-fiction book by Frank Abagnale (inspiration for Catch Me If You Can) about common forms of fraud, and it's remarkable how often people are caught embezzling because they do something dumb like buy a flashy car that attracts attention from coworkers. Embezzling in the pre-computer age was pretty easy to get away with if you would just avoid drawing attention to yourself, but people just can't help it.
- nkingsy 3y ago
  psa that dude pretty much invented his life story out of whole cloth.
  - knodi123 3y ago
    The true story behind The Wolf Of Wall Street was pretty exaggerated due to the author wanting to make a better drama, too.
  - zachmu 3y ago
    It's kind of funny how willing everyone was to believe an admitted conman. The book I read of his was "The Art of the Steal", and it wasn't really about his personal history, more about his work as an anti-fraud consultant drawing from real-world cases. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/138841.The_Art_of_the_Steal https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/138841.The_Art_of_the_St...
    - marcosdumay 3y ago
      The penalty for being wrong was none, and the story was quite entertaining. Why not hold it as true?
    - datavirtue 3y ago
      Sometimes there is inertia from fooling someone credible and influential. Once you have them you sail through everyone else. If the person later discovered your fraud they aren't likely to expose it because it would ruin their credibility. I have seen banks get taken by people and just sweep shit under the rug.
fnord77 3y ago
So what happened to Veliotis? Articles as late as 1987 just list him as "a fugitive hiding in Athens", then nothing. Did he get away with it?
- class3shock 3y ago
  It's unclear what happened to him. After the 80s it seems the US decided not pursue him [1] and per another comment it seems he may have passed in 1999. I haven't found much else besides a court case involving his son and wife in 1998. Part of why I posted this was hoping I might peak the interest of someone with more sleuthing skills than I. [1] There was mention in one article from the 80s that he may have been granted a limited immunity as part of providing evidence, which may have helped him avoid a more aggressive effort to have him returned.
jeffrallen 3y ago
> PUBLISHED: December 2, 1985 at 1:00 a.m. | UPDATED: August 9, 2021 at 10:23 a.m. I would like to know what happened on Aug 9?
- class3shock 3y ago
  I'm guessing the audio version was added then, I pretty certain there weren't any changes to the article.
class3shock 3y ago
I'm posting this because it is an amazing story but also because I'm wondering if there is anyone in Greece that might know of what became of Takis Veliotis after he fled the US? His name comes up only once after the 80's in relation to a court case involving his son and wife in 1998: https://web.archive.org/web/20240129182146/https://casetext.com/case/veliotis-v-nawrocki https://web.archive.org/web/20240129182146/https://casetext.... Some additional links for the curious: https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/19850712_IB85067_4a31a90d322b1912e380e2affb7763901803ac1c.pdf https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/19850712_IB85067_4a31a9... https://www.chicagotribune.com/1985/12/04/from-general-dynamics-executive-to-fugitive-2/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/1985/12/04/from-general-dynam... https://magazines.marinelink.com/Magazines/MaritimeReporter/197711/content/veliotis-manage-electric-210878 https://magazines.marinelink.com/Magazines/MaritimeReporter/...
- stavros 3y ago
  There seems to be nothing on him in Greek on the web, the only mentions I can find are in English, so they're probably ones you found already. Someone on Twitter said he's still in Greece.
  - dirtyhippiefree 3y ago
    Considering the state of the Greek economy, I perceive he’s living “off the grid” like a king. With decades behind him, he likely won by remaining invisible.
  - class3shock 3y ago
    By chance could you see if there's anything on his son? Eleuthertos George Veliotis Thank you so much for looking!
stefanos82 3y ago
Based on https://www.ancestry.com/search/?name=Panagiotis_Valliotis https://www.ancestry.com/search/?name=Panagiotis_Valliotis I can see without having an account that he died in 1999. Yeah, the surname is not Veliotis in search query, but the system finds it as 'Panagiotis Takis Veliotis'.

114 points by class3shock 3y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20240329125152/https://www.chicagotribune.com/1985/12/02/a-lavish-lifestyle-strains-credibility/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240329125152/https://www.chica...

ClearAndPresent 3y ago
https://archive.is/Ikgw8 https://archive.is/Ikgw8

abeppu 3y ago

> A federal grand jury in New York indicted Veliotis in 1983 on 17 counts of fraud and perjury, and he is being sought as a fugitive from this prosecution. He lives in Athens. > Top Navy officials acknowledged after Veliotis fled that they had were worried that he might compromise national security, and a major internal investigation was conducted to determine how much information he might have. Its results have not been made public. I wonder if anyone knows -- why was he able to hide out in Greece? Apparently the US had an extradition treaty in place with Greece since the 1930s. Especially if he was a security liability, you'd think the US would have greater than normal motivation to pursue extradition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradition_treaties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradit...

Cthulhu_ 3y ago
Greece isn't as tidy when it comes to administration; I wouldn't be surprised if he lives in relative comfort in a house under someone else's name, and nobody official comes to check.
- dirtyhippiefree 3y ago
  >Greece isn't as tidy when it comes to administration. Bingo. Winning by becoming invisible.
smnrchrds 3y ago
I don't know about Greece, but many countries do not extradite their own citizens to other countries, and include the provision that they can refuse extradition of their citizens in their treaties. France is one such country, hence Roman Polanski. Greece-Canada treaty has this provision too, so I suspect Greece is similar. > The Requested State shall not be required to extradite its own nationals. Nationality shall be determined as at the time of the offence for which extradition is requested. https://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=103324 https://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=103324
- keybored 3y ago
  This is only surprising because it’s the US. I mean if the US security apparatus says “national security” all of the allies are supposed to drop everything and send them on the first military plane back across the Atlantic.
  - Ylpertnodi 3y ago
    Like that US woman who killed a kid in the UK would be extradited? I guess lucky her hubby was in Intel and the UK cops were bamboozled.
- jajko 3y ago
  Polanski spent decades in Switzerland (small luxury ski resort Gstaad), not so much France. I dont claim to know the details of his case, but setup above is generally not uncommon, swiss even have special residency permit for folks bringing millions+ into the country, no need for pesky jobs like us peasants.
tokai 3y ago
Must have concluded that he didn't know anything really compromising. Else he'd just get an extraordinary rendition.
- abeppu 3y ago
  I thought extraordinary rendition was a) started later and aimed at "terrorists" (and it seems hard to argue that this guy is in that category) b) used to take people to black sites in 3rd countries, not to face charges or detention in the US ... and because of its dubious status under international law, it seems like it would be not a good look as a response to corruption issues?
Ylpertnodi 3y ago
If Greece is anti-death penalty and there would be a chance of that, they would not extradite.
- abeppu 3y ago
  > A federal grand jury in New York indicted Veliotis in 1983 on 17 counts of fraud and perjury Hold up, even the US doesn't do the death penalty for fraud and perjury right?
  - philwelch 3y ago
    Correct. This isn’t a death penalty case.
class3shock 3y ago
There is mention in one of the articles he received "limited immunity" for providing evidence, which could have helped him avoid a more aggressive effort to get him. Or maybe they just didn't think the spectacle that would have been his trial was in anyones best interest. Or if you want to get more conspiratorial, he could have been hanging onto these as a negotiating tool: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP91-00561R000100020048-7.pdf https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP91-00561R0001000...

JasonFruit 3y ago

My immediate reaction is to doubt some of this: isn't it what you'd expect to read about someone who agrees to testify against a well-funded, well-connected defense contractor? It was a time when the press was the undisputed king of information. But then I read that the case against General Dynamics fizzled and the one against Veliotis did not; maybe I should look at it as a caution against excessive skepticism.

metabagel 3y ago
You should have some basis for skepticism, especially in light of all the research which was done for this article.

noobermin 3y ago

With stories like this, it's surprising the US even "won" the cold war. It feels much more like the Soviet Union collapsed than the US won.

luxuryballs 3y ago
I think that’s exactly what happened and also strikes me as the only way to win a cold war short of surrender.
wpietri 3y ago
I'm far from an expert, but my understanding is that the USSR was well more corrupt at the time. Something that provided a firm foundation for Russia's current situation, with Putin as gangster-in-chief: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/03/13/alexei-navalny-yulia-navalnaya-putin-russia-election/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/03/13/alexei-na...
- bboygravity 3y ago
  Impossible to say since it's impossible to measure corruption in the US without actual practical access to information.
  - wpietri 3y ago
    It's impossible to say definitely, something that's true for quite a lot of topics, but that doesn't mean there's nothing useful to be said. E.g., Transparency International's corruption index.
- pphysch 3y ago
  Is there any actual evidence that Putin is actively corrupt on the level of say Jared Kushner or Hunter Biden (and their father figures), or is it just kinda an a priori thing so we can pat ourselves on the back?
  - metabagel 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

zachmu 3y ago

I read a non-fiction book by Frank Abagnale (inspiration for Catch Me If You Can) about common forms of fraud, and it's remarkable how often people are caught embezzling because they do something dumb like buy a flashy car that attracts attention from coworkers. Embezzling in the pre-computer age was pretty easy to get away with if you would just avoid drawing attention to yourself, but people just can't help it.

nkingsy 3y ago
psa that dude pretty much invented his life story out of whole cloth.
- knodi123 3y ago
  The true story behind The Wolf Of Wall Street was pretty exaggerated due to the author wanting to make a better drama, too.
- zachmu 3y ago
  It's kind of funny how willing everyone was to believe an admitted conman. The book I read of his was "The Art of the Steal", and it wasn't really about his personal history, more about his work as an anti-fraud consultant drawing from real-world cases. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/138841.The_Art_of_the_Steal https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/138841.The_Art_of_the_St...
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    The penalty for being wrong was none, and the story was quite entertaining. Why not hold it as true?
  - datavirtue 3y ago
    Sometimes there is inertia from fooling someone credible and influential. Once you have them you sail through everyone else. If the person later discovered your fraud they aren't likely to expose it because it would ruin their credibility. I have seen banks get taken by people and just sweep shit under the rug.

fnord77 3y ago

So what happened to Veliotis? Articles as late as 1987 just list him as "a fugitive hiding in Athens", then nothing. Did he get away with it?

class3shock 3y ago
It's unclear what happened to him. After the 80s it seems the US decided not pursue him [1] and per another comment it seems he may have passed in 1999. I haven't found much else besides a court case involving his son and wife in 1998. Part of why I posted this was hoping I might peak the interest of someone with more sleuthing skills than I. [1] There was mention in one article from the 80s that he may have been granted a limited immunity as part of providing evidence, which may have helped him avoid a more aggressive effort to have him returned.

jeffrallen 3y ago

> PUBLISHED: December 2, 1985 at 1:00 a.m. | UPDATED: August 9, 2021 at 10:23 a.m. I would like to know what happened on Aug 9?

class3shock 3y ago
I'm guessing the audio version was added then, I pretty certain there weren't any changes to the article.

class3shock 3y ago

I'm posting this because it is an amazing story but also because I'm wondering if there is anyone in Greece that might know of what became of Takis Veliotis after he fled the US? His name comes up only once after the 80's in relation to a court case involving his son and wife in 1998: https://web.archive.org/web/20240129182146/https://casetext.com/case/veliotis-v-nawrocki https://web.archive.org/web/20240129182146/https://casetext.... Some additional links for the curious: https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/19850712_IB85067_4a31a90d322b1912e380e2affb7763901803ac1c.pdf https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/19850712_IB85067_4a31a9... https://www.chicagotribune.com/1985/12/04/from-general-dynamics-executive-to-fugitive-2/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/1985/12/04/from-general-dynam... https://magazines.marinelink.com/Magazines/MaritimeReporter/197711/content/veliotis-manage-electric-210878 https://magazines.marinelink.com/Magazines/MaritimeReporter/...

stavros 3y ago
There seems to be nothing on him in Greek on the web, the only mentions I can find are in English, so they're probably ones you found already. Someone on Twitter said he's still in Greece.
- dirtyhippiefree 3y ago
  Considering the state of the Greek economy, I perceive he’s living “off the grid” like a king. With decades behind him, he likely won by remaining invisible.
- class3shock 3y ago
  By chance could you see if there's anything on his son? Eleuthertos George Veliotis Thank you so much for looking!

stefanos82 3y ago

Based on https://www.ancestry.com/search/?name=Panagiotis_Valliotis https://www.ancestry.com/search/?name=Panagiotis_Valliotis I can see without having an account that he died in 1999. Yeah, the surname is not Veliotis in search query, but the system finds it as 'Panagiotis Takis Veliotis'.