6 ms·

I'll share a lengthy anecdote (from CO, not OH), of how absurd these suspensions can get in strange edge-cases. Also, i think this shows how most processes have

I'll share a lengthy anecdote (from CO, not OH), of how absurd these suspensions can get in strange edge-cases. Also, i think this shows how most processes have "bugs", but people don't think of them that way when it isn't in software. One day, while helping someone get their car out of an impound, i was informed by the officer on duty that my license was not showing as valid. They couldn't tell why though, said the status/notes listed made no sense to her, and i should contact the Denver office to find out what is going on. I was rather confused, as it had been many years since i had last been pulled over, for a minor speeding ticket. Denver was similarly confused by the details. After some research, they tell me what appears to have happened was i paid my ticket years ago by check, in person. They recorded they received the check on time, but either due to a clerical error or something (they aren't sure), a late fee was assessed on my ticket prior to the payment being processed. The fee was, i think, $5. Around this same time, i moved, and while i changed my address with the USPS, i didn't with the DMV. The DMV was thus sending my "you owe us $5" letters with "Do Not Forward" instructions via the USPS, who were knowingly delivering the mail to the wrong address (my old place). When i discovered all of this, years later, my license had been suspended for 54 weeks due to delinquency. In CO, if your license has been suspended for over 1 year, you may not just satisfy the debt, you must also retake your driving test. But since i didn't take my original test in CO, i would also need to re-apply for a permit and pass a written permit exam before being allowed to schedule my drivers test. The poor lady i spoke with in the Denver office recognized the sheer absurdity of everything she was telling me, but could do nothing to fix it. She also let me know the outstanding debt was now $15.

mattpallissard 3y ago
I had a similar thing except on a much longer timeframe. When I turned 21 I went to renew my license and register a truck I bought. I paid by check. When the lady told me it'd be one sixty three (or something like that) I wrote a check for $1.63. She took it, gave me my paperwork and sent me on my way. Fast forward 10 years the state must have digitized everything and I received a collection notice in the mail. I hadn't even lived in that state or owned that vehicle for several years. At least my license wasn't invalid.
macintux 3y ago
My license was suspended for a few weeks for a case of mistaken identity. It wasn’t deliberate identity theft as far as I could tell, but no one would tell me how I ended up the target of the court summons which I missed. Fortunately everyone was friendly and willing to wipe my record clean, but that could easily have been much worse.
swayvil 3y ago
This is exactly what a "rise of the machines" style attack looks like. The bureaucratic world is so much easier to dominate than the physical world.
- lamontcg 3y ago
  The future dystopia isn't 1984, it isn't Brave New World, it is Brazil.
  - shiroiushi 3y ago
    I think you're correct, but it sucks. The dystopia of Brave New World is far more fun than the others.
  - wyclif 3y ago
    Here is what I expect that to look like: https://youtu.be/LFlFIG22Y9E https://youtu.be/LFlFIG22Y9E This movie was released in 1985. At that time, a dystopian scenario like this was far out. In 2024 I don't think it's very far out—it's on the horizon.
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    Brazil, with a bit of Wall-E mixed in.
kazinator 3y ago
The people who enforce rules like this don't have the IQ to grasp the concept that rules could have a bug.
- int_19h 3y ago
  It has nothing to do with IQ, and everything with turning people into cogs in a machine. Following the rules, no matter how inane, is safe. Making a judgment call to break the rules exposes one to risk, and people who will review it later will likely be in the same conundrum themselves (i.e. it's always safer for them to conclude that breaking the rules was not justified), all the way to the top. This is also why the larger and the more hierarchical any organization is, the more sociopathic it is as a whole, even if its bureaucracy is ran by people who aren't.
- acdha 3y ago
  The people who enforce rules like that know that their bosses will fire them if they don’t, and I doubt that they’re paid so much that finding another job wouldn’t be a personal terror. Politicians and pundits love to rail against government inefficiency or bureaucracy but that’s an intentional tactic to absolve the politicians who created the problem. If the law says there’s a penalty after 52 weeks, the DMV employee can’t override it unless they’re very specifically authorized to do so.
  - michaelt 3y ago
    liquidise says the DMV recorded they received the check on time. If that is true, and the records show what can only be explained by a clerical error - there is always a procedure to fix clerical errors. If liquidise wrote to his senator and the senator took up the cause, I guarantee the error could be corrected by an orderly and legal procedure. Of course, whether that procedure is known to front-line workers, and whether they can do it fast enough to achieve their call processing time targets is another matter.
    - nijave 3y ago
      It is more a matter of time, energy and patience to find the person actually authorized to fix the clerical error.
treflop 3y ago
This happened to me in California. They completely lost all records of my payment, I was assessed a late fee, my license was suspended, and then my driving record got marks. I was unknowingly driving on a suspended license for months. Anyway, no one could do anything about it until I wrote a letter to a judge in the court system and he wrote back and was able to reverse all the damage.
- EE84M3i 3y ago
  > no one could do anything about it until I wrote a letter to a judge in the court system How did you know what judge to contact? Can citizens just appeal administrative stuff like this in California to judges without filing a whole suit?
  - treflop 3y ago
    So I found a copy of the letter that I wrote and it was just addressed to “Your Honor” and I physically dropped off the letter at the court in person to the front desk. I left my mailing address and I got back a return letter in the mail a few weeks later or something. I have no idea what you can do it for but it worked for my problem at least.
    - everforward 3y ago
      I believe you can generally get items to a judge like that, but do not do it with evidence (at least not in a proper trial). Things have to be entered into evidence, provided to the prosecution, etc. Things like this are totally worth a try, though. The legal system can be much more flexible than it seems, and the humans underneath it are generally kind of occasionally overworked and frustrated. I got out of a huge "parking in a handicapped spot" ticket when I was like 16. I was running late to school, the only parking space available was next to the handicapped spot. I thought I was just barely outside the space, turns out I was just barely inside (~3-4"). I just took pictures and went down to the courthouse. I told them what happened, that I didn't intend to deprive anyone of their handicap space and that I know they need them, and that even though I know I accidentally screwed up, the space should have still been usable. I asked if they could cut me a little slack, and they did. I got a little admonition about being more careful, which was eminently fair, and they dismissed the ticket.
FireBeyond 3y ago
Hah! The same thing can happen in Washington! I was pulled over for something, actually it might just have been this. "Your license isn't valid." What? Why is it suspended? "It's not suspended, it's just not valid." What the hell does that mean? "You'll have to talk to the DOL. And you can't drive your vehicle from here." I'm meant to be working the next night, so I need to figure this out. Go to the DOL's website. It literally says my license is valid, in bold green letters. Huh. For fun, I click on "Pay any amounts owed (citations, infractions, etc.)". "There are no amounts owed on your license." I take print outs of both of these, and am at the DOL when it opens the next morning. Similar to you. I paid, in person, by check, a fine a few years prior. Because it wasn't "processed" til after midnight, my license was suspended, but unsuspended the same (next) day. But (and I'm not sure how this is justified) there was a fee attached to removing the suspension (that I didn't know about), so my license was "invalidated". To their credit, at least, the lady at the DOL was very sympathetic. She stamped all my print outs with a DOL stamp, and then all the print outs of the process to revalidate my license (to try to support my case, that there was no way I could have known this, as the DOL's own website tells me my license is valid and is not subject to any restriction). Went to court to contest the "driving without a valid license". Still took me 20 minutes of repeating, several times over, to the prosecutor this whole flow, the first fifteen minutes of which he was insistent that none of my paperwork mattered because "they would have sent you a letter, so you must have known", before finally capitulating and dropping it.
- hansvm 3y ago
  > they would have sent you a letter They're pretty bad at that step. They'll swear up and down it was sent, but questions like "to where" and "was it the same address I have on my driver's license," or "do you have the slightest shred of evidence" are met with deaf ears. I had the damnedest time once explaining to the clerk why it mattered that the signature she was looking at wasn't my name, wasn't my handwriting, wasn't attached to a document with my name, and wasn't dated within a year of any ticket associated with my license. Her entire algorithm was (document_in_file && ink_in_signature_box). It might be acceptable if you were at least entitled to a proper trial when they made blatant mistakes. The status quo causes problems though.
Ferret7446 3y ago
In theory the humans in the process should be exercising judgement to smooth over these bugs (e.g., it's why the US legal system works (or should work) the way it does). Someone somewhere either should have the authority to do it, or has it but lacks the personal agency/awareness to use it.
- judge2020 3y ago
  Public servants not following the laws to the letter can introduce legal risk. If OP had somehow found the right person at the DMV high up enough to do something about this, they probably could have, but giving discretion to bend the law at even a 'manager' level might be too much of a risk for the state.
  - cwillu 3y ago
    Then bugs in the process need to be aggressively fixed, with liability for damages caused.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- sheepscreek 3y ago
  Unfortunately, most humans involved in these processes are satisfied with being cogs in the wheel. Nothing wrong with that, they have their own bills to pay and a hundred other things to be worried about. A system that can even allow anyone to “flag” potential process issues to be bubbled up will be quite useful. Such as the role played by X and Google reviews for most private businesses. Or the “How was your experience?” machines outside washrooms with three smiley buttons goes a long way than not having any feedback loop.
metadat 3y ago
To resolve it, did you really have to get a learners permit and retake your drivers test? Outrageous.
- liquidise 3y ago
  I did, yes. Retook a "written" permit test (which is now an ipad-based test), then had to wait for my permit to arrive via mail, then had to schedule and take a proper drivers test, after paying the adjusted late fee. Was a wild ride.
latchkey 3y ago
This is where countries like Vietnam excel. The level of corruption at all levels of government jobs is unparalleled. All you have to do is find the right connection (usually through a family member), pay some "coffee money" and whatever you want, you can get. This would have been resolved for probably $20-40, but it would have only taken a few minutes of your time and a lot less frustration.
- int_19h 3y ago
  As the Russian saying goes, "severity of the law is mitigated by not having to follow it".
  - pyuser583 3y ago
    Someone called the Russian constitution “tyranny mitigated by assasination.’
    - int_19h 3y ago
      I haven't heard that one. And, to be honest, it doesn't really make much sense to me, because the modern Russian constitution is a pretty nice document overall, guaranteeing all the good stuff etc. It's just that it's never really been followed. This isn't new, either - e.g. the 1936 Constitution of the USSR (adopted under Stalin) was considered a very liberal document for its time. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of assembly were all guaranteed, there was strict separation of powers, universal franchise with secret voting, and so on. Ironically, most of the people who authored it would end up in gulags or with a bullet in their head within a few years of its publication.
      - pyuser583 3y ago
        This quote would be from the 19th century or a bit earlier. Either Abraham Lincoln or one of the American Founding Fathers. So it would be talking about the Czars.
Projectiboga 3y ago
New Jersey will take money to "lift your suspension" and blatantly neglect to mention you also have to pay a fee to "Restore your driving privileges". I think they got in trouble with this so now all NJ speeding tickets are court appearance mandatory so they can pull you into their insurance surcharges over three following years and other fee schemes legally. But the pro tip is notify DMV as soon as you move. And nowadays it is best to get set up with the DMV online.

mattpallissard 3y ago

I had a similar thing except on a much longer timeframe. When I turned 21 I went to renew my license and register a truck I bought. I paid by check. When the lady told me it'd be one sixty three (or something like that) I wrote a check for $1.63. She took it, gave me my paperwork and sent me on my way. Fast forward 10 years the state must have digitized everything and I received a collection notice in the mail. I hadn't even lived in that state or owned that vehicle for several years. At least my license wasn't invalid.

macintux 3y ago

My license was suspended for a few weeks for a case of mistaken identity. It wasn’t deliberate identity theft as far as I could tell, but no one would tell me how I ended up the target of the court summons which I missed. Fortunately everyone was friendly and willing to wipe my record clean, but that could easily have been much worse.

swayvil 3y ago

This is exactly what a "rise of the machines" style attack looks like. The bureaucratic world is so much easier to dominate than the physical world.

lamontcg 3y ago
The future dystopia isn't 1984, it isn't Brave New World, it is Brazil.
- shiroiushi 3y ago
  I think you're correct, but it sucks. The dystopia of Brave New World is far more fun than the others.
- wyclif 3y ago
  Here is what I expect that to look like: https://youtu.be/LFlFIG22Y9E https://youtu.be/LFlFIG22Y9E This movie was released in 1985. At that time, a dystopian scenario like this was far out. In 2024 I don't think it's very far out—it's on the horizon.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  Brazil, with a bit of Wall-E mixed in.

kazinator 3y ago

The people who enforce rules like this don't have the IQ to grasp the concept that rules could have a bug.

int_19h 3y ago
It has nothing to do with IQ, and everything with turning people into cogs in a machine. Following the rules, no matter how inane, is safe. Making a judgment call to break the rules exposes one to risk, and people who will review it later will likely be in the same conundrum themselves (i.e. it's always safer for them to conclude that breaking the rules was not justified), all the way to the top. This is also why the larger and the more hierarchical any organization is, the more sociopathic it is as a whole, even if its bureaucracy is ran by people who aren't.
acdha 3y ago
The people who enforce rules like that know that their bosses will fire them if they don’t, and I doubt that they’re paid so much that finding another job wouldn’t be a personal terror. Politicians and pundits love to rail against government inefficiency or bureaucracy but that’s an intentional tactic to absolve the politicians who created the problem. If the law says there’s a penalty after 52 weeks, the DMV employee can’t override it unless they’re very specifically authorized to do so.
- michaelt 3y ago
  liquidise says the DMV recorded they received the check on time. If that is true, and the records show what can only be explained by a clerical error - there is always a procedure to fix clerical errors. If liquidise wrote to his senator and the senator took up the cause, I guarantee the error could be corrected by an orderly and legal procedure. Of course, whether that procedure is known to front-line workers, and whether they can do it fast enough to achieve their call processing time targets is another matter.
  - nijave 3y ago
    It is more a matter of time, energy and patience to find the person actually authorized to fix the clerical error.

treflop 3y ago

This happened to me in California. They completely lost all records of my payment, I was assessed a late fee, my license was suspended, and then my driving record got marks. I was unknowingly driving on a suspended license for months. Anyway, no one could do anything about it until I wrote a letter to a judge in the court system and he wrote back and was able to reverse all the damage.

EE84M3i 3y ago
> no one could do anything about it until I wrote a letter to a judge in the court system How did you know what judge to contact? Can citizens just appeal administrative stuff like this in California to judges without filing a whole suit?
- treflop 3y ago
  So I found a copy of the letter that I wrote and it was just addressed to “Your Honor” and I physically dropped off the letter at the court in person to the front desk. I left my mailing address and I got back a return letter in the mail a few weeks later or something. I have no idea what you can do it for but it worked for my problem at least.
  - everforward 3y ago
    I believe you can generally get items to a judge like that, but do not do it with evidence (at least not in a proper trial). Things have to be entered into evidence, provided to the prosecution, etc. Things like this are totally worth a try, though. The legal system can be much more flexible than it seems, and the humans underneath it are generally kind of occasionally overworked and frustrated. I got out of a huge "parking in a handicapped spot" ticket when I was like 16. I was running late to school, the only parking space available was next to the handicapped spot. I thought I was just barely outside the space, turns out I was just barely inside (~3-4"). I just took pictures and went down to the courthouse. I told them what happened, that I didn't intend to deprive anyone of their handicap space and that I know they need them, and that even though I know I accidentally screwed up, the space should have still been usable. I asked if they could cut me a little slack, and they did. I got a little admonition about being more careful, which was eminently fair, and they dismissed the ticket.

FireBeyond 3y ago

Hah! The same thing can happen in Washington! I was pulled over for something, actually it might just have been this. "Your license isn't valid." What? Why is it suspended? "It's not suspended, it's just not valid." What the hell does that mean? "You'll have to talk to the DOL. And you can't drive your vehicle from here." I'm meant to be working the next night, so I need to figure this out. Go to the DOL's website. It literally says my license is valid, in bold green letters. Huh. For fun, I click on "Pay any amounts owed (citations, infractions, etc.)". "There are no amounts owed on your license." I take print outs of both of these, and am at the DOL when it opens the next morning. Similar to you. I paid, in person, by check, a fine a few years prior. Because it wasn't "processed" til after midnight, my license was suspended, but unsuspended the same (next) day. But (and I'm not sure how this is justified) there was a fee attached to removing the suspension (that I didn't know about), so my license was "invalidated". To their credit, at least, the lady at the DOL was very sympathetic. She stamped all my print outs with a DOL stamp, and then all the print outs of the process to revalidate my license (to try to support my case, that there was no way I could have known this, as the DOL's own website tells me my license is valid and is not subject to any restriction). Went to court to contest the "driving without a valid license". Still took me 20 minutes of repeating, several times over, to the prosecutor this whole flow, the first fifteen minutes of which he was insistent that none of my paperwork mattered because "they would have sent you a letter, so you must have known", before finally capitulating and dropping it.

hansvm 3y ago
> they would have sent you a letter They're pretty bad at that step. They'll swear up and down it was sent, but questions like "to where" and "was it the same address I have on my driver's license," or "do you have the slightest shred of evidence" are met with deaf ears. I had the damnedest time once explaining to the clerk why it mattered that the signature she was looking at wasn't my name, wasn't my handwriting, wasn't attached to a document with my name, and wasn't dated within a year of any ticket associated with my license. Her entire algorithm was (document_in_file && ink_in_signature_box). It might be acceptable if you were at least entitled to a proper trial when they made blatant mistakes. The status quo causes problems though.

Ferret7446 3y ago

In theory the humans in the process should be exercising judgement to smooth over these bugs (e.g., it's why the US legal system works (or should work) the way it does). Someone somewhere either should have the authority to do it, or has it but lacks the personal agency/awareness to use it.

judge2020 3y ago
Public servants not following the laws to the letter can introduce legal risk. If OP had somehow found the right person at the DMV high up enough to do something about this, they probably could have, but giving discretion to bend the law at even a 'manager' level might be too much of a risk for the state.
- cwillu 3y ago
  Then bugs in the process need to be aggressively fixed, with liability for damages caused.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
sheepscreek 3y ago
Unfortunately, most humans involved in these processes are satisfied with being cogs in the wheel. Nothing wrong with that, they have their own bills to pay and a hundred other things to be worried about. A system that can even allow anyone to “flag” potential process issues to be bubbled up will be quite useful. Such as the role played by X and Google reviews for most private businesses. Or the “How was your experience?” machines outside washrooms with three smiley buttons goes a long way than not having any feedback loop.

metadat 3y ago

To resolve it, did you really have to get a learners permit and retake your drivers test? Outrageous.

liquidise 3y ago
I did, yes. Retook a "written" permit test (which is now an ipad-based test), then had to wait for my permit to arrive via mail, then had to schedule and take a proper drivers test, after paying the adjusted late fee. Was a wild ride.

latchkey 3y ago

This is where countries like Vietnam excel. The level of corruption at all levels of government jobs is unparalleled. All you have to do is find the right connection (usually through a family member), pay some "coffee money" and whatever you want, you can get. This would have been resolved for probably $20-40, but it would have only taken a few minutes of your time and a lot less frustration.

int_19h 3y ago
As the Russian saying goes, "severity of the law is mitigated by not having to follow it".
- pyuser583 3y ago
  Someone called the Russian constitution “tyranny mitigated by assasination.’
  - int_19h 3y ago
    I haven't heard that one. And, to be honest, it doesn't really make much sense to me, because the modern Russian constitution is a pretty nice document overall, guaranteeing all the good stuff etc. It's just that it's never really been followed. This isn't new, either - e.g. the 1936 Constitution of the USSR (adopted under Stalin) was considered a very liberal document for its time. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of assembly were all guaranteed, there was strict separation of powers, universal franchise with secret voting, and so on. Ironically, most of the people who authored it would end up in gulags or with a bullet in their head within a few years of its publication.
    - pyuser583 3y ago
      This quote would be from the 19th century or a bit earlier. Either Abraham Lincoln or one of the American Founding Fathers. So it would be talking about the Czars.

Projectiboga 3y ago

New Jersey will take money to "lift your suspension" and blatantly neglect to mention you also have to pay a fee to "Restore your driving privileges". I think they got in trouble with this so now all NJ speeding tickets are court appearance mandatory so they can pull you into their insurance surcharges over three following years and other fee schemes legally. But the pro tip is notify DMV as soon as you move. And nowadays it is best to get set up with the DMV online.