4 ms·

Also necessary in NYC which I don’t really feel is low-trust in general.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
Also necessary in pretty much all USA metros and suburbs I have been to in the last 10 years.
xandrius 3y ago
NYC and US are definitely low-trust. Interesting comparison: https://jacknicastro.substack.com/p/vienna-and-new-york-high-and-low https://jacknicastro.substack.com/p/vienna-and-new-york-high...
- ambrose2 3y ago
  Definitely a high trust city (Vienna), but note that a few times a year they do check for tickets. Because the monthly pass rate is so low, most people have purchased the pass on their phone and that must be shown a couple of times a year or else you’ll be charged a fine at the checkpoint. I’m actually surprised that the evasion stats are so low, since the fine isn’t terribly large and you might come out ahead just never paying the fare and only paying fines. I have to say though, that system of spot checks makes the day to day very low friction.
  - CalRobert 3y ago
    The first time I visited Vienna I noted the complete lack of fare control and thought "wow, it's great they've made public transport free!" My hostel was kind enough to disabuse me of this notion, though.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  I don't think a single parameter like that makes it "definitely" low-trust. In Austria, people are required to deposit money to borrow a grocery cart while shopping for food. Not so anywhere I've been in the US -- ergo Austria is low-trust and US is high-trust? I think not. https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/2004272-euro-coins-ones-might-useful-have-4.html https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/2004272-euro-coin...
  - lupusreal 3y ago
    The US has those, Aldi uses them. But isn't this because they don't have cart boys to bring the carts from corals throughout the parking lot back to the front of the store? It's just a different model of cart management, not indicative of trust or lack thereof. If somebody wanted to steal a cart, that quarter is a trivial price for it. It's not an anti-theft measure, just a little thing to encourage honest people to walk slightly further than normal. Here's a rule of thumb I use to judge if a community is high trust or not. If I leave my bicycle unlocked and it gets stolen, will others be surprised or will they call me a moron for trusting other people? Obviously NYC is low trust, I would be mocked mercilessly if my unlocked bike got stolen there.
    - vkou 3y ago
      My bar for low-trust is 'Should I expect to have to bribe public and private officials to get them to perform their duties, most of the time'? The US is relatively high trust in this space. And I don't know of many countries that will pass the bike test. Certainly, nowhere in Europe would. Maybe we could try a different test - how afraid is the society of itself. Count how often you see cops, how well-armed they are, etc...
      - xandrius 3y ago
        For me the test is: if possible, would an individual skip paying the ticket for a public transport if they know almost nobody will check? It's so trivial and yet it shows how much the society cares about its own systems functioning properly or not.
        vkou 3y ago
        That's a better test. There are a lot of places with 95%+ fare compliance where I wouldn't leave my bike unlocked for an instant. It only takes one asshole out of thousands to steal a bike, and every society has at least one asshole.
        3y ago
nradov 3y ago
Hardly anyone in NYC would comply with such a law. They would just ignore it. The city could perhaps require DNA testing by animal shelters and legitimate breeders within it's borders. But many dogs come from elsewhere, or from backyard breeders who don't care about laws.
- llamaimperative 3y ago
  Dogs in NYC are already required to wear tags with their rabies vaccination statuses and IDs. That also isn't really checked, but it absolutely could be by simply stopping people walking their dogs and requesting to see their ID tag.
  - samatman 3y ago
    Don't shoot the messenger, but this is one of a number of quality-of-life improvements which is a non-starter because of the doctrine of disparate racial impact. The argument would be that poverty, undocumented status, etc, means it's harder for some ethnicities to comply with that sort of regulation, so the burden of police interaction would disproportionately fall on them. Probably not wrong in this case, getting a dog registered with all his shots is fairly expensive. My take is that a law worth having is a law worth enforcing, but unless that idea comes back into fashion, things like your suggestion won't happen.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      Yet obviously there are many laws that are enforced and do have disparate racial impacts... So this is just an airing of grievances.
      - samatman 3y ago
        Those laws aren't dog ownership requirements in New York City, though. Which is the topic I was replying to. It wasn't a statement about all laws everywhere.

Also necessary in pretty much all USA metros and suburbs I have been to in the last 10 years.

NYC and US are definitely low-trust. Interesting comparison: https://jacknicastro.substack.com/p/vienna-and-new-york-high-and-low https://jacknicastro.substack.com/p/vienna-and-new-york-high...

ambrose2 3y ago
Definitely a high trust city (Vienna), but note that a few times a year they do check for tickets. Because the monthly pass rate is so low, most people have purchased the pass on their phone and that must be shown a couple of times a year or else you’ll be charged a fine at the checkpoint. I’m actually surprised that the evasion stats are so low, since the fine isn’t terribly large and you might come out ahead just never paying the fare and only paying fines. I have to say though, that system of spot checks makes the day to day very low friction.
- CalRobert 3y ago
  The first time I visited Vienna I noted the complete lack of fare control and thought "wow, it's great they've made public transport free!" My hostel was kind enough to disabuse me of this notion, though.
ethanbond 3y ago
I don't think a single parameter like that makes it "definitely" low-trust. In Austria, people are required to deposit money to borrow a grocery cart while shopping for food. Not so anywhere I've been in the US -- ergo Austria is low-trust and US is high-trust? I think not. https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/2004272-euro-coins-ones-might-useful-have-4.html https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/2004272-euro-coin...
- lupusreal 3y ago
  The US has those, Aldi uses them. But isn't this because they don't have cart boys to bring the carts from corals throughout the parking lot back to the front of the store? It's just a different model of cart management, not indicative of trust or lack thereof. If somebody wanted to steal a cart, that quarter is a trivial price for it. It's not an anti-theft measure, just a little thing to encourage honest people to walk slightly further than normal. Here's a rule of thumb I use to judge if a community is high trust or not. If I leave my bicycle unlocked and it gets stolen, will others be surprised or will they call me a moron for trusting other people? Obviously NYC is low trust, I would be mocked mercilessly if my unlocked bike got stolen there.
  - vkou 3y ago
    My bar for low-trust is 'Should I expect to have to bribe public and private officials to get them to perform their duties, most of the time'? The US is relatively high trust in this space. And I don't know of many countries that will pass the bike test. Certainly, nowhere in Europe would. Maybe we could try a different test - how afraid is the society of itself. Count how often you see cops, how well-armed they are, etc...
    - xandrius 3y ago
      For me the test is: if possible, would an individual skip paying the ticket for a public transport if they know almost nobody will check? It's so trivial and yet it shows how much the society cares about its own systems functioning properly or not.
      - vkou 3y ago
        That's a better test. There are a lot of places with 95%+ fare compliance where I wouldn't leave my bike unlocked for an instant. It only takes one asshole out of thousands to steal a bike, and every society has at least one asshole.
        3y ago

nradov 3y ago

Hardly anyone in NYC would comply with such a law. They would just ignore it. The city could perhaps require DNA testing by animal shelters and legitimate breeders within it's borders. But many dogs come from elsewhere, or from backyard breeders who don't care about laws.

llamaimperative 3y ago
Dogs in NYC are already required to wear tags with their rabies vaccination statuses and IDs. That also isn't really checked, but it absolutely could be by simply stopping people walking their dogs and requesting to see their ID tag.
- samatman 3y ago
  Don't shoot the messenger, but this is one of a number of quality-of-life improvements which is a non-starter because of the doctrine of disparate racial impact. The argument would be that poverty, undocumented status, etc, means it's harder for some ethnicities to comply with that sort of regulation, so the burden of police interaction would disproportionately fall on them. Probably not wrong in this case, getting a dog registered with all his shots is fairly expensive. My take is that a law worth having is a law worth enforcing, but unless that idea comes back into fashion, things like your suggestion won't happen.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    Yet obviously there are many laws that are enforced and do have disparate racial impacts... So this is just an airing of grievances.
    - samatman 3y ago
      Those laws aren't dog ownership requirements in New York City, though. Which is the topic I was replying to. It wasn't a statement about all laws everywhere.