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Having Safari hardcoded to the first position in the list certainly won't fly. The Windows browser choice ballot and the Android search engine choice screens ev

by jsnell 3y ago

Having Safari hardcoded to the first position in the list certainly won't fly. The Windows browser choice ballot and the Android search engine choice screens eventually settled on a two tier with the five most popular options in a random order at the top, and a second tier was shown after them also in a random order. But the other problem is the "not now" button, because it's what the large majority of users will click. Does it by any chance have the effect that Safari is kept as the default, and the question is never asked again? The Windows browser choice ballot and the Android search engine choice screens forced the user to make a choice.

bilbo0s 3y ago
Isn't having the 5 top choices always be the same kind of the same violation? It entrenches the big guys.
- zarathustreal 3y ago
  The idea that any of this is or ever was a problem to the end user is laughable honestly, this is political theater. End users want to be able to browse the web, that’s the point of a web browser. Most of them are based on the same underlying technology and implementations. Throwing around political power to force OS teams to spend engineering resources on the illusion of choice is actively harmful for basically zero benefit to the end user.
  - Hasu 3y ago
    It's not a problem for the end user to be unable to pick which browser they want to use? Speak for yourself, I would consider being forced into a single browser choice a huge problem, to the point that I will not buy a device that does it.
    - Ajedi32 3y ago
      The fact that alternate browser engines were banned on iOS was indeed a huge problem, but I think the current legislation goes too far. As the GP said, many users won't care. I think trying to force them to care by presenting a randomized list of a dozen different options at setup time is misguided. I don't see the issue with merely having a default so long as there's an easy way to change it and Apple isn't applying any rules or restrictions to competing browsers that they don't apply to their own.
  - johannes1234321 3y ago
    Indeed, outside Hackernews hardly any user cares about the browser. However it becomes relevant once a dominating vendor uses the monopoly to limit the capabilities of the browser to benefit their app store etc. and that is hard to notice. For good competition the EU tries to limit that early.
    - thejohnconway 3y ago
      Yeah, and what they’ve done here will result in a Chrome monopoly everywhere. They needed to break Chrome before going after Safari and Apple.
      - talldayo 3y ago
        Apple really shouldn't have used a monopoly strategy to block another, more theoretical monopoly from happening.
        thejohnconway 3y ago
        I agree, I’m not on Apples side in this stuff, and actually think the App Store strategy tax is killing Apple as a worthwhile company. I wish they’d just dump the whole thing. But the monopoly of Chrome is getting to be as bad as the IE6 days, and is worth prioritising in my opinion, because it affects everyone, not just those who buy into Apple products.
        neodymiumphish 3y ago
        Except that Apple monopolistic behavior would have stayed limited to iOS devices, which they make and maintain. If users were staunchly opposed to this “monopoly,” they had the option to switch to any of a huge selection of highly comparable choices. Google wins in this situation, because now their dominance expands to far more devices.
        talldayo 3y ago
        > they had the option to switch Let's not mince words; the "option" you are referring to is to throw away your iPhone and buy a different device. The fact that this is the only path of recourse is the obvious reason why Apple is being investigated multinationally. Users don't have to be opposed to a monopoly for one to exist. Customers loved Bell telephone's monopoly, because Bell gave their users free long-distance calling. That love did nothing to stop what the government did next.
- jsnell 3y ago
  I can see that some people would think that, but it's a design that was converged on after several iterations and seems to have worked for both the regulators and the companies. I think both of the previous examples actually started with just enough entries for a single screen, and were later expanded to include more entries in a second tier. From the user's perspective, having to make a choice from an unsorted list of hundreds or thousands of items would not work. That's why the regulators seem to accept the idea that not every product has the right to be on those choice lists, and not every listed product needs to be equally prominent. What's important is that the criteria are objective and don't give an unfair advantage to the platform owner.
- zamadatix 3y ago
  When Microsoft was made to do a browser choice screen for the EU in 2010 they had a two tier system and it seemed to go well with the EU. On one hand, sure - it is an advantage for the popular browsers. On the other hand the goal is more that the manufacturer not be using their position to force the browser so heavily not necessarily to put every Joe Schmoe Browser in front of the same number of eyes. From a practicality perspective it solves the main problem without becoming a complication in itself.
fh9302 3y ago
Safari is not hardcoded to the first position, it is fully randomized.
threeseed 3y ago
From all the comments in the Reddit thread and from Apple's documentation it's entirely random.
- jsnell 3y ago
  Thanks, I was going just by the OP. Then I'd have to imagine that the problem is with the "not now" button.
rad_gruchalski 3y ago
> But the other problem is the "not now" button, because it's what the large majority of users will click Yeah, because not now, dammit. I am not ready to choose the browser, I have no clue. Geezus, give me an option if you really insist on me to have options but don’t FORCE me to make my mind up when I’m not ready, right there on the spot. How do I even know if this is the best choice I am about to make? Just imagine that every time someone taps “not now” they simply say “I don’t care”. Why do I need to feel the breath of a bureaucrat on my neck when settling up my phone? Just because the bureaucrat had some beef with Apple I’m now forced to make some possibly uneducated decisions. Does your 70 year old mother or 3rd uncle knows which browser is the best and the implications of making the choice are? Go and sort out more pressing matters. Leave my walled garden alone.
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  You are entirely free to just choose Safari, in that case.
  - rad_gruchalski 3y ago
    Sure, but how does a person not fluent in tech know what the good choice is. Think from the perspective of a tech illiterate for a moment. They won’t know and the law will forbid making recommendations, and Safari cannot be put as first choice because the bureaucrat doesn’t like it.
itopaloglu83 3y ago
I’m curious. Why isn’t Microsoft forced to present a similar screen for browsers?
- niutech 3y ago
  Microsoft has been forced to show the Browser Choice screen way before DMA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu
  - itopaloglu83 3y ago
    I presume that was only visible when the region is Europe. But also the obligation expired in 2014. Weird. > Microsoft's obligation to display the Browser Choice screen to Windows users expired in December 2014.

by jsnell 3y ago

bilbo0s 3y ago

Isn't having the 5 top choices always be the same kind of the same violation? It entrenches the big guys.

zarathustreal 3y ago
The idea that any of this is or ever was a problem to the end user is laughable honestly, this is political theater. End users want to be able to browse the web, that’s the point of a web browser. Most of them are based on the same underlying technology and implementations. Throwing around political power to force OS teams to spend engineering resources on the illusion of choice is actively harmful for basically zero benefit to the end user.
- Hasu 3y ago
  It's not a problem for the end user to be unable to pick which browser they want to use? Speak for yourself, I would consider being forced into a single browser choice a huge problem, to the point that I will not buy a device that does it.
  - Ajedi32 3y ago
    The fact that alternate browser engines were banned on iOS was indeed a huge problem, but I think the current legislation goes too far. As the GP said, many users won't care. I think trying to force them to care by presenting a randomized list of a dozen different options at setup time is misguided. I don't see the issue with merely having a default so long as there's an easy way to change it and Apple isn't applying any rules or restrictions to competing browsers that they don't apply to their own.
- johannes1234321 3y ago
  Indeed, outside Hackernews hardly any user cares about the browser. However it becomes relevant once a dominating vendor uses the monopoly to limit the capabilities of the browser to benefit their app store etc. and that is hard to notice. For good competition the EU tries to limit that early.
  - thejohnconway 3y ago
    Yeah, and what they’ve done here will result in a Chrome monopoly everywhere. They needed to break Chrome before going after Safari and Apple.
    - talldayo 3y ago
      Apple really shouldn't have used a monopoly strategy to block another, more theoretical monopoly from happening.
      - thejohnconway 3y ago
        I agree, I’m not on Apples side in this stuff, and actually think the App Store strategy tax is killing Apple as a worthwhile company. I wish they’d just dump the whole thing. But the monopoly of Chrome is getting to be as bad as the IE6 days, and is worth prioritising in my opinion, because it affects everyone, not just those who buy into Apple products.
      - neodymiumphish 3y ago
        Except that Apple monopolistic behavior would have stayed limited to iOS devices, which they make and maintain. If users were staunchly opposed to this “monopoly,” they had the option to switch to any of a huge selection of highly comparable choices. Google wins in this situation, because now their dominance expands to far more devices.
        talldayo 3y ago
        > they had the option to switch Let's not mince words; the "option" you are referring to is to throw away your iPhone and buy a different device. The fact that this is the only path of recourse is the obvious reason why Apple is being investigated multinationally. Users don't have to be opposed to a monopoly for one to exist. Customers loved Bell telephone's monopoly, because Bell gave their users free long-distance calling. That love did nothing to stop what the government did next.
jsnell 3y ago
I can see that some people would think that, but it's a design that was converged on after several iterations and seems to have worked for both the regulators and the companies. I think both of the previous examples actually started with just enough entries for a single screen, and were later expanded to include more entries in a second tier. From the user's perspective, having to make a choice from an unsorted list of hundreds or thousands of items would not work. That's why the regulators seem to accept the idea that not every product has the right to be on those choice lists, and not every listed product needs to be equally prominent. What's important is that the criteria are objective and don't give an unfair advantage to the platform owner.
zamadatix 3y ago
When Microsoft was made to do a browser choice screen for the EU in 2010 they had a two tier system and it seemed to go well with the EU. On one hand, sure - it is an advantage for the popular browsers. On the other hand the goal is more that the manufacturer not be using their position to force the browser so heavily not necessarily to put every Joe Schmoe Browser in front of the same number of eyes. From a practicality perspective it solves the main problem without becoming a complication in itself.

fh9302 3y ago

Safari is not hardcoded to the first position, it is fully randomized.

threeseed 3y ago

From all the comments in the Reddit thread and from Apple's documentation it's entirely random.

jsnell 3y ago
Thanks, I was going just by the OP. Then I'd have to imagine that the problem is with the "not now" button.

rad_gruchalski 3y ago

> But the other problem is the "not now" button, because it's what the large majority of users will click Yeah, because not now, dammit. I am not ready to choose the browser, I have no clue. Geezus, give me an option if you really insist on me to have options but don’t FORCE me to make my mind up when I’m not ready, right there on the spot. How do I even know if this is the best choice I am about to make? Just imagine that every time someone taps “not now” they simply say “I don’t care”. Why do I need to feel the breath of a bureaucrat on my neck when settling up my phone? Just because the bureaucrat had some beef with Apple I’m now forced to make some possibly uneducated decisions. Does your 70 year old mother or 3rd uncle knows which browser is the best and the implications of making the choice are? Go and sort out more pressing matters. Leave my walled garden alone.

disgruntledphd2 3y ago
You are entirely free to just choose Safari, in that case.
- rad_gruchalski 3y ago
  Sure, but how does a person not fluent in tech know what the good choice is. Think from the perspective of a tech illiterate for a moment. They won’t know and the law will forbid making recommendations, and Safari cannot be put as first choice because the bureaucrat doesn’t like it.

itopaloglu83 3y ago

I’m curious. Why isn’t Microsoft forced to present a similar screen for browsers?

niutech 3y ago
Microsoft has been forced to show the Browser Choice screen way before DMA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu
- itopaloglu83 3y ago
  I presume that was only visible when the region is Europe. But also the obligation expired in 2014. Weird. > Microsoft's obligation to display the Browser Choice screen to Windows users expired in December 2014.