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Sorry, I have work to do (as probably also you), so I will be brief. "after russia invaded in 2014": Crimea was taken away, this yes, while the uprise in Donba

Sorry, I have work to do (as probably also you), so I will be brief. "after russia invaded in 2014": Crimea was taken away, this yes, while the uprise in Donbass was, as far as I know, spontaneous, with tacit Russian support; both followed the coup organized by the west in Kiev (there is no doubt about this, it was an unconstitutional coup, and the west did breach an agreement - tacit perhaps, I don't recall - with Russia as Lavrov stated). "Maybe you got cause and effect mixed up here?" - telegram channels calling to kill all russians did indeed appear after February 2022, or at least I think so. As for ukranian nationalism, it was encouraged by the west, with end purpose to get NATO to Russia borders. You see, contrary to what americans would like to believe, there is nothing truly exceptional about your democracy. Though there are substantial differences between Athenian democracy and what you call democracy, its way to expand by luring the people governed by oligarchies with "people's government", disrupting existing order, causing chaos, war and misery - at least until it substitutes the existing oligarchies with "people's" oligarchies, is unchanged for at least 2400 years (you can try to read, if you have not read them before, Thucydides and Machiavelli's "History of Florence", preferably older translations where they do not translate "demos" as "democrats", I have seen also this lately). "That is just a weak reason to reestablish a russian empire. And that's the main thing here happening, for some reason Ukraine does not want to be part of your empire anymore and you try to force them." - in a recent book ("Occidente e il nemico permanente") by Elena Basile, an Italian ex diplomat, she states that all of this would never happen if the west had not turned Ukraine into an anti Russian state (I would cite more, but I don't have a time to look this up). She is not a Russian propagandist, but just a person trying to reason by herself given the sources available, as so many people whose voices get silenced in the west under the pretext of "Russian propaganda", while she calls for mutual tolerance and respect of rights. (And of course there are many other examples besides her.)

mopsi 3y ago
> while the uprise in Donbass was, as far as I know, spontaneous, with tacit Russian support; The European Court of Human Rights analyzed this when they were judging a case regarding the shot down airliner, and they found no evidence of any local insurgency. Instead, according to the facts established by the ECHR, the fighting in Donbas and Crimea was between armed forces of Ukraine and forces under the command of Russia. > followed the coup organized by the west in Kiev After over 100 protesters were shot and killed under Yanukovych, he fled the country fearing criminal charges, and was removed from office by the parliament with 328-0 votes. No-one even from his own party opposed this. Whatever legal tehnicalities there could've been, they're settled after Ukraine held new elections months later and elected a new president with a full mandate. > the west did breach an agreement - tacit perhaps, I don't recall - with Russia as Lavrov stated If you are referring to the sob story about NATO promising never to accept Eastern Europe into NATO, then here's Gorbachev directly calling it a myth: https://twitter.com/Jesuitchild/status/1749887239226617873 https://twitter.com/Jesuitchild/status/1749887239226617873 Minister of foreign affairs Shevardnadze, minister of defence Yazov and others have also said that it's a fabrication. > she calls for mutual tolerance and respect of rights. That is exactly how Sweden and Finland have tried to live next to Russia. Finland's policy even spawned the term finlandization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization But seeing the way Russia has treated Ukraine made it abudantly clear that such policy was untenable and irresponsible, and both countries abandoned neutrality in favor of alliances designed to contain the imperialistic expansionist behavior of Russia. This is an especially large pivot for Sweden, which had been neutral for over 200 years. Given the current conditions, a good first step towards mutual tolerance and respect of rights would be Russia packing up its things and getting out of Ukraine. And then, perhaps in a hundred years when everyone who remembers how Russians gleefully raped and murdered in Ukraine have died, further steps towards reconciliation can perhaps be made. But before that, it'd would perhaps be a good idea to ask forgiveness for the past crimes first. Today marks the 75th anniversary of 1949 mass deportations by Russians that saw around 100 000 people from Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania deported in entire families, from babies to bed-ridden elderly, into Siberian wilderness because they were "class enemies". On such anniversaries, Russian embassies usually put out releases saying that it didn't happen, or if it did, they deserved it. Can you imagine German embassies acting like this on Holocaust remembrance days?
lukan 3y ago
"As for ukranian nationalism, it was encouraged by the west, with end purpose to get NATO to Russia borders. You see, contrary to what americans would like to believe, there is nothing truly exceptional about your democracy. " I am not american. And none of this matters to the argument. But if you want a glimpse of my knowledge about the situation, then I can tell you, that already germany in WW1 did encourage ukrainian nationalism. I am not a fan of any nationalism. And I also do know that some russian propaganda channels get supressed like RT in the west, which I am also not a fan of - but no one goes to prison or worse because of spreading lies. In russia people went to prison for calling the war a war. And many who did more, accidently fell out of a window. Or died in prison. So it is no surprise most of Ukraine clearly wants to remain independent and not become russian. No matter who influenced whom at what time. That always happens. What matters is, what people want here and now. And what treatys they signed and broke.

mopsi 3y ago

> while the uprise in Donbass was, as far as I know, spontaneous, with tacit Russian support; The European Court of Human Rights analyzed this when they were judging a case regarding the shot down airliner, and they found no evidence of any local insurgency. Instead, according to the facts established by the ECHR, the fighting in Donbas and Crimea was between armed forces of Ukraine and forces under the command of Russia. > followed the coup organized by the west in Kiev After over 100 protesters were shot and killed under Yanukovych, he fled the country fearing criminal charges, and was removed from office by the parliament with 328-0 votes. No-one even from his own party opposed this. Whatever legal tehnicalities there could've been, they're settled after Ukraine held new elections months later and elected a new president with a full mandate. > the west did breach an agreement - tacit perhaps, I don't recall - with Russia as Lavrov stated If you are referring to the sob story about NATO promising never to accept Eastern Europe into NATO, then here's Gorbachev directly calling it a myth: https://twitter.com/Jesuitchild/status/1749887239226617873 https://twitter.com/Jesuitchild/status/1749887239226617873 Minister of foreign affairs Shevardnadze, minister of defence Yazov and others have also said that it's a fabrication. > she calls for mutual tolerance and respect of rights. That is exactly how Sweden and Finland have tried to live next to Russia. Finland's policy even spawned the term finlandization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization But seeing the way Russia has treated Ukraine made it abudantly clear that such policy was untenable and irresponsible, and both countries abandoned neutrality in favor of alliances designed to contain the imperialistic expansionist behavior of Russia. This is an especially large pivot for Sweden, which had been neutral for over 200 years. Given the current conditions, a good first step towards mutual tolerance and respect of rights would be Russia packing up its things and getting out of Ukraine. And then, perhaps in a hundred years when everyone who remembers how Russians gleefully raped and murdered in Ukraine have died, further steps towards reconciliation can perhaps be made. But before that, it'd would perhaps be a good idea to ask forgiveness for the past crimes first. Today marks the 75th anniversary of 1949 mass deportations by Russians that saw around 100 000 people from Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania deported in entire families, from babies to bed-ridden elderly, into Siberian wilderness because they were "class enemies". On such anniversaries, Russian embassies usually put out releases saying that it didn't happen, or if it did, they deserved it. Can you imagine German embassies acting like this on Holocaust remembrance days?

lukan 3y ago

"As for ukranian nationalism, it was encouraged by the west, with end purpose to get NATO to Russia borders. You see, contrary to what americans would like to believe, there is nothing truly exceptional about your democracy. " I am not american. And none of this matters to the argument. But if you want a glimpse of my knowledge about the situation, then I can tell you, that already germany in WW1 did encourage ukrainian nationalism. I am not a fan of any nationalism. And I also do know that some russian propaganda channels get supressed like RT in the west, which I am also not a fan of - but no one goes to prison or worse because of spreading lies. In russia people went to prison for calling the war a war. And many who did more, accidently fell out of a window. Or died in prison. So it is no surprise most of Ukraine clearly wants to remain independent and not become russian. No matter who influenced whom at what time. That always happens. What matters is, what people want here and now. And what treatys they signed and broke.