8 ms·

This is more or less Putin's version of the story, that the west draws out the conflict. He can end it any moment if he wants to.

zdragnar 3y ago
If the West hadn't sent money or arms to Ukraine, they would have lost a long time ago. The fact that it has dragged on as long as it has being due to Western interference is incontrovertible. You're also right that either Putin or Ukraine could give up at any point. That's rather orthogonal to his point, though.
- boo-ga-ga 3y ago
  If Ukraine gives up, people will be genocided. If Putin gives up, he just can announce that the goals of his special military operation have been reached and continue living as it's now.
  - throw310822 3y ago
    > If Ukraine gives up, people will be genocided This sounds a lot like propaganda. Also, "giving up" doesn't mean giving up unconditionally. An agreement can be made that provides guarantees for the safety of the people.
    - boo-ga-ga 3y ago
      I'm Ukrainian who left the village I was in one day before russians entered it. In a short time they were there, they killed 80+ civilians. Lots of similar cases are well documented everywhere. It's not a propaganda, it's fact.
      - riehwvfbk 3y ago
        [flagged]
        dralley 3y ago
        Their account is 12 years old... Yours, on the other hand, is barely 5 weeks old. It's the idiot who is claiming that Russians killing Ukrainian civilians is mere "propaganda" whose account is 100 days old.
        riehwvfbk 3y ago
        [flagged]
        boo-ga-ga 3y ago
        There are lots of officially confirmed reports regarding killed civilians. Is UN a good source for you? I've checked your account and you basically comment only on political issues. > Oh, and a 12 year old HN account originating in a tiny Ukrainian village that > has been massacred and yet completely stayed out of all news? Very primitive manipulation. I never told I "originated" in that village, never told it is tiny, never told it has been completely massacred. A very basic search on my submissions will show my name and what I do. I am very sorry that HN allows russian(-sponsored) trolls to be here.
        riehwvfbk 3y ago
        [flagged]
        boo-ga-ga 3y ago
        Your post was not a disagreement. You intentionally rephrased what I said and implied that I'm lying and all the atrocities (many of them, but not all, well documented) done by russians are propaganda. By doing this, you help russians to continue their genocide.
        riehwvfbk 3y ago
        The vast majority of Ukrainian civilian deaths were in Donetsk (source: Wikipedia, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukra...) If there is a genocide going on, it's not the side you are thinking of that is perpetuating it. But you'll just say that Wikipedia is wrong, and the UN sources they are citing are Russian propaganda. Also, you still didn't respond to the substance of my argument.
      - throw310822 3y ago
        Russians are brutal, no doubt about it. But- even knowing Ukraine is a vast country with big differences between the western and eastern regions- are there cultural, ethnic and linguistic differences so deep between Russia and Ukraine that Russia's purpose would be extermination, rather than annexation of the easternmost regions and cultural assimilation? Honest question, obviously you know and understand this much better than I do, so feel free to bash my ignorance.
        boo-ga-ga 3y ago
        Their "assimilation" is basically a genocide: they displace people, "reeducate" children and move them from their parents to russian families, forcibly conscript Ukrainians on the occupied territories to die in wars etc. And of course, they do not hesitate to torture and kill lots of people in the process just because they are as they are. If you check what they tell, their next goal after conquering Ukraine (and expanding the army with Ukrainians) will be going for Baltics or Kazakhstan.
    - throwaway473825 3y ago
      It's quite ironic how you wrote exactly the opposite regarding Palestine in another thread: >Gaza is just a region of Palestine. Palestine is an occupied territory. A fast and enduring solution to the conflict is that Israel ceases its military and civilian occupation of Palestine and withdraws to its internationally recognized borders: those of pre-1967. Period.
      - throw310822 3y ago
        The situation of Palestine is entirely different from that of Ukraine. The Israeli-Palestinian "conflict" is centered on ethnicity. Israelis have made clear multiple times that they want the whole land for an ethnic state that excludes Palestinians (which yes, means either ethnic cleansing or genocide). And there is no interest on Israel's part in any agreement to end the conflict- because it's only thanks to the conflict that Israel can keep expanding its territory. Mind, the conflict can still end through negotiations and guarantees for both sides, exactly as in the case of Russia and Ukraine; it would just be- let' say- helpful, if the major states stopped siding with the invader and oppressor and started sanctioning it, exactly as they did with Russia.
    - dralley 3y ago
      > An agreement can be made that provides guarantees for the safety of the people. Lol. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. Lmao. Ukrainians have seen that play before. Many, many times. Every single time it's just a maneuver for Putin to get into a better position to fuck them over in the future. Budapest Memorandum, Minsk 1, Minsk 2, multiple local ceasefire agreements, the Black Sea Grain Initiative... what happened to Prigozhin being a nice recent example.
      - boo-ga-ga 3y ago
        + to this many times! And it's not only about Putin and Ukraine. Anyone can see and check how russian peace deal with Ichkeria worked for the country.
    - mopsi 3y ago
      > An agreement can be made that provides guarantees for the safety of the people. We already have several of those. In Helsinki in 1975, all European countries (including the USSR) agreed to refrain from violently changing borders in Europe.[1] In Budapest in 1994, Russia reiterated the commitment, promising to respect sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up nuclear weapons.[2] How do you suggest these, or any future agreements, should be enforced when Russia chooses to violate them? Not to mention that Russia has become one the most oppressive countries in the world. What guarantees do you expect from a country that severly abuses the human rights of its population? That they won't abuse Ukrainians more than they do ethnic Russians when Russian officials imprison people for anti-war poems, raid gay bars, beat and rape protesters and murder dissidents? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
      - throw310822 3y ago
        The opinion of one of the most prominent political scientists in the US, John Mearsheimer, is that this conflict has in the making for many years, because of the continuous expansion of NATO towards east and provocative actions of the US. This premise is important because understanding the causes, or motives, of the war is central in thinking about possible resolutions. If the cause of the war is Putin's crazy wickedness and its goal is the extermination of Ukrainians, there is no peace possible. If the cause of the war is an actual problem of politics, resources, national cohesion, alliances, you name it- then something can be agreed upon that stops the conflict now, saves the lives of hundreds of thousands on both sides, and buys a few more years. It will not be a just solution but it can be an acceptable one. And works the other way around too: if you don't want the conflict to stop, for whatever reason, you will tell people that no agreement is possible because the end goal of the other side is total extermination.
        boo-ga-ga 3y ago
        The reason for the war is clearly stated by russian officials and propaganda: they want their empire to extend, and they (Medvedev as example) directly say that Ukrainians are "artificial" nation and should not exist. Any deal with russians doesn't mean anything to them, they proved it many times. As for Mearsheimer, let him comment how the appeasement worked out with Hitler.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  > The fact that it has dragged on as long as it has being due to Western interference is incontrovertible. It is disputable. If Ukrainian forces were defeated conventionally, the resistance would just move underground, to a guerilla warfare. But it's a strange argument. On one hand it's factual, but what do you want to say with that? That Ukraine completely subjugated by Russia would be preferable to the current state? For whom? Ukrainians clearly prefer the current state of things over subjugation, but then people like you basically claim that they're wrong in their preference.
  - riehwvfbk 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - rightbyte 3y ago
      Getting crushed between superpowers is probably one of the worst national nightmares. You can just hope your elite is intellectual(?) enough to not put themself in that position on your behalf. I wonder how much such disconcert for drafting is due to running low on nationalistic types that more or less volunteer. I think most people just fake their nationalistic support to not be beaten with sticks or whatever, when it really comes down to it, they bail if possible. I guess there is a reason the borders are closed for men draft dodging. I mean, there surely can't be a greater part of the community that would by their own free will put them self into a trench, than would volunteer to run as a coach or whatever the local soccer team or equivalent.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      There are polls for that, e.g. https://www.voanews.com/a/new-poll-reveals-how-ukrainians-feel-about-war-future/7303180.html https://www.voanews.com/a/new-poll-reveals-how-ukrainians-fe... > “Although there is some evidence of fatigue, Ukrainians overall remain committed to winning the war,” Ray said. Continued approval of the army and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, she added, are key to victory. > Ukrainians are deeply confident in their military, with approval ratings at a record high of 95%, according to Gallup. Support for Zelenskyy has faltered slightly but is still overwhelmingly strong at 81%. ... > Just look at the blooming garden that is liberated Iraq. That's a weird example. Why not look at the nearby Baltics or Poland instead, who similarly to Ukraine, has chosen West as opposed to Russia.

zdragnar 3y ago

If the West hadn't sent money or arms to Ukraine, they would have lost a long time ago. The fact that it has dragged on as long as it has being due to Western interference is incontrovertible. You're also right that either Putin or Ukraine could give up at any point. That's rather orthogonal to his point, though.

boo-ga-ga 3y ago
If Ukraine gives up, people will be genocided. If Putin gives up, he just can announce that the goals of his special military operation have been reached and continue living as it's now.
- throw310822 3y ago
  > If Ukraine gives up, people will be genocided This sounds a lot like propaganda. Also, "giving up" doesn't mean giving up unconditionally. An agreement can be made that provides guarantees for the safety of the people.
  - boo-ga-ga 3y ago
    I'm Ukrainian who left the village I was in one day before russians entered it. In a short time they were there, they killed 80+ civilians. Lots of similar cases are well documented everywhere. It's not a propaganda, it's fact.
    - riehwvfbk 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - dralley 3y ago
        Their account is 12 years old... Yours, on the other hand, is barely 5 weeks old. It's the idiot who is claiming that Russians killing Ukrainian civilians is mere "propaganda" whose account is 100 days old.
        riehwvfbk 3y ago
        [flagged]
        boo-ga-ga 3y ago
        There are lots of officially confirmed reports regarding killed civilians. Is UN a good source for you? I've checked your account and you basically comment only on political issues. > Oh, and a 12 year old HN account originating in a tiny Ukrainian village that > has been massacred and yet completely stayed out of all news? Very primitive manipulation. I never told I "originated" in that village, never told it is tiny, never told it has been completely massacred. A very basic search on my submissions will show my name and what I do. I am very sorry that HN allows russian(-sponsored) trolls to be here.
        riehwvfbk 3y ago
        [flagged]
        boo-ga-ga 3y ago
        Your post was not a disagreement. You intentionally rephrased what I said and implied that I'm lying and all the atrocities (many of them, but not all, well documented) done by russians are propaganda. By doing this, you help russians to continue their genocide.
        riehwvfbk 3y ago
        The vast majority of Ukrainian civilian deaths were in Donetsk (source: Wikipedia, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukra...) If there is a genocide going on, it's not the side you are thinking of that is perpetuating it. But you'll just say that Wikipedia is wrong, and the UN sources they are citing are Russian propaganda. Also, you still didn't respond to the substance of my argument.
    - throw310822 3y ago
      Russians are brutal, no doubt about it. But- even knowing Ukraine is a vast country with big differences between the western and eastern regions- are there cultural, ethnic and linguistic differences so deep between Russia and Ukraine that Russia's purpose would be extermination, rather than annexation of the easternmost regions and cultural assimilation? Honest question, obviously you know and understand this much better than I do, so feel free to bash my ignorance.
      - boo-ga-ga 3y ago
        Their "assimilation" is basically a genocide: they displace people, "reeducate" children and move them from their parents to russian families, forcibly conscript Ukrainians on the occupied territories to die in wars etc. And of course, they do not hesitate to torture and kill lots of people in the process just because they are as they are. If you check what they tell, their next goal after conquering Ukraine (and expanding the army with Ukrainians) will be going for Baltics or Kazakhstan.
  - throwaway473825 3y ago
    It's quite ironic how you wrote exactly the opposite regarding Palestine in another thread: >Gaza is just a region of Palestine. Palestine is an occupied territory. A fast and enduring solution to the conflict is that Israel ceases its military and civilian occupation of Palestine and withdraws to its internationally recognized borders: those of pre-1967. Period.
    - throw310822 3y ago
      The situation of Palestine is entirely different from that of Ukraine. The Israeli-Palestinian "conflict" is centered on ethnicity. Israelis have made clear multiple times that they want the whole land for an ethnic state that excludes Palestinians (which yes, means either ethnic cleansing or genocide). And there is no interest on Israel's part in any agreement to end the conflict- because it's only thanks to the conflict that Israel can keep expanding its territory. Mind, the conflict can still end through negotiations and guarantees for both sides, exactly as in the case of Russia and Ukraine; it would just be- let' say- helpful, if the major states stopped siding with the invader and oppressor and started sanctioning it, exactly as they did with Russia.
  - dralley 3y ago
    > An agreement can be made that provides guarantees for the safety of the people. Lol. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. Lmao. Ukrainians have seen that play before. Many, many times. Every single time it's just a maneuver for Putin to get into a better position to fuck them over in the future. Budapest Memorandum, Minsk 1, Minsk 2, multiple local ceasefire agreements, the Black Sea Grain Initiative... what happened to Prigozhin being a nice recent example.
    - boo-ga-ga 3y ago
      + to this many times! And it's not only about Putin and Ukraine. Anyone can see and check how russian peace deal with Ichkeria worked for the country.
  - mopsi 3y ago
    > An agreement can be made that provides guarantees for the safety of the people. We already have several of those. In Helsinki in 1975, all European countries (including the USSR) agreed to refrain from violently changing borders in Europe.[1] In Budapest in 1994, Russia reiterated the commitment, promising to respect sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up nuclear weapons.[2] How do you suggest these, or any future agreements, should be enforced when Russia chooses to violate them? Not to mention that Russia has become one the most oppressive countries in the world. What guarantees do you expect from a country that severly abuses the human rights of its population? That they won't abuse Ukrainians more than they do ethnic Russians when Russian officials imprison people for anti-war poems, raid gay bars, beat and rape protesters and murder dissidents? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
    - throw310822 3y ago
      The opinion of one of the most prominent political scientists in the US, John Mearsheimer, is that this conflict has in the making for many years, because of the continuous expansion of NATO towards east and provocative actions of the US. This premise is important because understanding the causes, or motives, of the war is central in thinking about possible resolutions. If the cause of the war is Putin's crazy wickedness and its goal is the extermination of Ukrainians, there is no peace possible. If the cause of the war is an actual problem of politics, resources, national cohesion, alliances, you name it- then something can be agreed upon that stops the conflict now, saves the lives of hundreds of thousands on both sides, and buys a few more years. It will not be a just solution but it can be an acceptable one. And works the other way around too: if you don't want the conflict to stop, for whatever reason, you will tell people that no agreement is possible because the end goal of the other side is total extermination.
      - boo-ga-ga 3y ago
        The reason for the war is clearly stated by russian officials and propaganda: they want their empire to extend, and they (Medvedev as example) directly say that Ukrainians are "artificial" nation and should not exist. Any deal with russians doesn't mean anything to them, they proved it many times. As for Mearsheimer, let him comment how the appeasement worked out with Hitler.
The_Colonel 3y ago
> The fact that it has dragged on as long as it has being due to Western interference is incontrovertible. It is disputable. If Ukrainian forces were defeated conventionally, the resistance would just move underground, to a guerilla warfare. But it's a strange argument. On one hand it's factual, but what do you want to say with that? That Ukraine completely subjugated by Russia would be preferable to the current state? For whom? Ukrainians clearly prefer the current state of things over subjugation, but then people like you basically claim that they're wrong in their preference.
- riehwvfbk 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    Getting crushed between superpowers is probably one of the worst national nightmares. You can just hope your elite is intellectual(?) enough to not put themself in that position on your behalf. I wonder how much such disconcert for drafting is due to running low on nationalistic types that more or less volunteer. I think most people just fake their nationalistic support to not be beaten with sticks or whatever, when it really comes down to it, they bail if possible. I guess there is a reason the borders are closed for men draft dodging. I mean, there surely can't be a greater part of the community that would by their own free will put them self into a trench, than would volunteer to run as a coach or whatever the local soccer team or equivalent.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    There are polls for that, e.g. https://www.voanews.com/a/new-poll-reveals-how-ukrainians-feel-about-war-future/7303180.html https://www.voanews.com/a/new-poll-reveals-how-ukrainians-fe... > “Although there is some evidence of fatigue, Ukrainians overall remain committed to winning the war,” Ray said. Continued approval of the army and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, she added, are key to victory. > Ukrainians are deeply confident in their military, with approval ratings at a record high of 95%, according to Gallup. Support for Zelenskyy has faltered slightly but is still overwhelmingly strong at 81%. ... > Just look at the blooming garden that is liberated Iraq. That's a weird example. Why not look at the nearby Baltics or Poland instead, who similarly to Ukraine, has chosen West as opposed to Russia.