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The fact is millions of people take illegal drugs every day, anyone who wants them, anywhere in the world can get hold of them, pretty much at any time. The wa

The fact is millions of people take illegal drugs every day, anyone who wants them, anywhere in the world can get hold of them, pretty much at any time. The way drugs are produced and distributed causes harm to communities all along the path from production to people who use them. The level of danger that being illegal has caused whole sections of society cannot be overstated. If criminalising all this stuff hadn’t worked over the last hundred odd years maybe it is time for a different approach? The question is what does it look like? It won’t ever be stopped so what comes next?

ed_elliott_asc 3y ago
I was just reading bbc news and this article came up: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-68637317.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-68637317.amp This is a classic example of drugs in the UK, a women who potentially could have gone to jail leaving her child without anyone to care for her, multiple handguns which are actually hard to get hold of in the UK and are themselves potentially lethal weapons. A criminal network all created around and sustained for the distribution of heroin.
thinkingemote 3y ago
The irony is that prohibition does work at what it sets out to do but with massive side effects. It reduces levels of consumption, reduces levels of illness, reduces domestic and street violence, increases health, increases safety of women and children in the home, increases family stability, increases productivity. Obviously it also brings about massive organised criminal networks along with it which cause huge harms. The question is what does an approach look like where we keep benefits of reduced usage with less crime.
- ed_elliott_asc 3y ago
  I know in the uk looking at prohibition and cocaine, it has failed. Almost every pub after a weekend will have traces of cocaine in the toilets - even the Houses of Parliament has cocaine in the toilets when it has been tested. I honestly don’t believe if it was legal then there would be many more users taking it. I think because alcohol is already legal and has problems associated with it you would get an incremental increase in crimes like alcohol driven fighting and vandalism, drunk driving etc which would increase (drug driving, drug driven fighting and vandalism, etc) but overall there would be a reduction in harm, and potential benefits like taxation which can be used for treatment and education to steer people away from harm.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  Many of the things you're claiming haven't been established. It's hard to find a reduction in street violence when prohibition itself is a primary cause of gang wars and a major funding source for violent criminal organizations. The productivity claims are questionable at best. Amphetamine, for example, quite often on the prohibition hit list and banned in several countries, is sold in the US under the brand name Adderall and is typically not associated with reduced productivity. Conversely, cannabis does have a reputation for reducing productivity, but it can also be used for pain management and in that context do the opposite. Cocain is a little of both. It's obvious that what's needed here is for people to use drugs responsibly rather than in excess, which is an education problem rather than a law enforcement problem.
- Nursie 3y ago
  > reduces levels of illness, reduces domestic and street violence, increases health, increases safety of women and children in the home, increases family stability, increases productivity. These are bald assertions, and particularly suspect in light of deaths caused by contaminants and by unknown doses. Even the claim of reduced use is suspect. Increased but safer use of some substances, without criminal consequences, could easily be a net gain in all of the categories you mention. Particularly if some folks prone to violent assholery chose things other than booze…
lordnacho 3y ago
I'm in favor of trying something new, maybe legalize it and bring in taxes, as with alcohol and tobacco. My main issue with that path is I don't want the drug lords to win. Maybe the guy from the article will make it, but I get the feeling the existing incumbents will try to use their position to simply get a legal version of their empire that was built on blood.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Just allow big pharma to make it. And then normal pharmacies to sell it over the counter. Even could get some limited license that only applies to over the counter items for independent shops...
- jddj 3y ago
  Did that happen with marijuana where that has been legalised? Not a leading question, genuinely haven't been following the saga
  - lordnacho 3y ago
    It's a good question, I don't know either. I'm not sure it's so simple to know.
lesuorac 3y ago
> The fact is millions of people take illegal drugs every day, anyone who wants them, anywhere in the world can get hold of them, pretty much at any time If the goal post is "illegal drugs" then sure anybody can get some. If it's a specific illegal drug (say Heroin) then no not everybody can get some; and if you think I'm wrong go buy some and also a fentanyl test kit and I already know the positive result. It would be interesting to see how overdose deaths change when people stop getting as adulterated drugs as they currently do.

ed_elliott_asc 3y ago

I was just reading bbc news and this article came up: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-68637317.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-68637317.amp This is a classic example of drugs in the UK, a women who potentially could have gone to jail leaving her child without anyone to care for her, multiple handguns which are actually hard to get hold of in the UK and are themselves potentially lethal weapons. A criminal network all created around and sustained for the distribution of heroin.

thinkingemote 3y ago

The irony is that prohibition does work at what it sets out to do but with massive side effects. It reduces levels of consumption, reduces levels of illness, reduces domestic and street violence, increases health, increases safety of women and children in the home, increases family stability, increases productivity. Obviously it also brings about massive organised criminal networks along with it which cause huge harms. The question is what does an approach look like where we keep benefits of reduced usage with less crime.

ed_elliott_asc 3y ago
I know in the uk looking at prohibition and cocaine, it has failed. Almost every pub after a weekend will have traces of cocaine in the toilets - even the Houses of Parliament has cocaine in the toilets when it has been tested. I honestly don’t believe if it was legal then there would be many more users taking it. I think because alcohol is already legal and has problems associated with it you would get an incremental increase in crimes like alcohol driven fighting and vandalism, drunk driving etc which would increase (drug driving, drug driven fighting and vandalism, etc) but overall there would be a reduction in harm, and potential benefits like taxation which can be used for treatment and education to steer people away from harm.
AnthonyMouse 3y ago
Many of the things you're claiming haven't been established. It's hard to find a reduction in street violence when prohibition itself is a primary cause of gang wars and a major funding source for violent criminal organizations. The productivity claims are questionable at best. Amphetamine, for example, quite often on the prohibition hit list and banned in several countries, is sold in the US under the brand name Adderall and is typically not associated with reduced productivity. Conversely, cannabis does have a reputation for reducing productivity, but it can also be used for pain management and in that context do the opposite. Cocain is a little of both. It's obvious that what's needed here is for people to use drugs responsibly rather than in excess, which is an education problem rather than a law enforcement problem.
Nursie 3y ago
> reduces levels of illness, reduces domestic and street violence, increases health, increases safety of women and children in the home, increases family stability, increases productivity. These are bald assertions, and particularly suspect in light of deaths caused by contaminants and by unknown doses. Even the claim of reduced use is suspect. Increased but safer use of some substances, without criminal consequences, could easily be a net gain in all of the categories you mention. Particularly if some folks prone to violent assholery chose things other than booze…

lordnacho 3y ago

I'm in favor of trying something new, maybe legalize it and bring in taxes, as with alcohol and tobacco. My main issue with that path is I don't want the drug lords to win. Maybe the guy from the article will make it, but I get the feeling the existing incumbents will try to use their position to simply get a legal version of their empire that was built on blood.

Ekaros 3y ago
Just allow big pharma to make it. And then normal pharmacies to sell it over the counter. Even could get some limited license that only applies to over the counter items for independent shops...
jddj 3y ago
Did that happen with marijuana where that has been legalised? Not a leading question, genuinely haven't been following the saga
- lordnacho 3y ago
  It's a good question, I don't know either. I'm not sure it's so simple to know.

lesuorac 3y ago

> The fact is millions of people take illegal drugs every day, anyone who wants them, anywhere in the world can get hold of them, pretty much at any time If the goal post is "illegal drugs" then sure anybody can get some. If it's a specific illegal drug (say Heroin) then no not everybody can get some; and if you think I'm wrong go buy some and also a fentanyl test kit and I already know the positive result. It would be interesting to see how overdose deaths change when people stop getting as adulterated drugs as they currently do.