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Yeah, loudness war is a plague, but vinyl and CD differences have nothing to do with it; it's just incompetent producers and sound engineers aiming at making th

Yeah, loudness war is a plague, but vinyl and CD differences have nothing to do with it; it's just incompetent producers and sound engineers aiming at making their work more loud to attract listeners. I miss vinyl records for only one thing: big sleeves and their art.

wolrah 3y ago
> but vinyl and CD differences have nothing to do with it; it's just incompetent producers and sound engineers aiming at making their work more loud to attract listeners. The physical limitations of vinyl don't allow it to be pushed as hard as a digital medium, or even tape, can be. It's kind of like making a road that only allows air-cooled VWs and noting that speeding drops to almost zero.
- ZiiS 3y ago
  Till someone makes a Porsche.
pgeorgi 3y ago
If everybody went for vinyl, they'd bring the loudness war over as far as it's possible (the medium is more limited). Right now, sound engineers, not incompetent at all, optimize CDs for the CD audience (and for the most part, they preferentially buy "louder," even if they'd deny it if you ask) and vinyl for those freaks who maintain their diamond needle. So vinyl sounds better _because_ it's a hipster medium.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- copperx 3y ago
  > optimize CDs for the CD audience CDs haven't been on anyone's radar for a long time.
eyelidlessness 3y ago
> Yeah, loudness war is a plague, but vinyl and CD differences have nothing to do with it; it's just incompetent producers and sound engineers aiming at making their work more loud to attract listeners. The claim (not directly made by the article, but generally made to support the difference) is that vinyl’s physical characteristics limit how “loud” a recording can be. Specifically, that a vinyl pressing of a “brick walled” recording becomes unplayable—or at least unreliably playable—because its physical tracks are insufficient to keep a stylus in place for playback. I don’t know how true that claim is, but the analysis seems cromulent, and analysis of comparable media seems to support it well enough. It isn’t a claim that pressing vinyl attracts or requires better production etc, but that the medium has inherent physical constraints that benefit, at least as a side effect, from greater dynamic range.
- starkparker 3y ago
  It's quite true. Vinyl mastering is very different from digital, or even mastering for tape or other analog formats. Sibilance is terrifying in vinyl mastering. The properties of different groove lengths influence track order on albums because tolerances are different on the outer end of the record than the inner end, and you can squeeze out more fidelity by sacrificing duration with wider grooves. There are a few general tricks here: https://www.sageaudio.com/articles/how-to-master-for-vinyl https://www.sageaudio.com/articles/how-to-master-for-vinyl but in practice there are so many variables that vinyl mastering engineers are worth their weight in gold, and there's some significant investment made in trying to automate most of all of it algorithmically or via ML/AI.
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  There are a lot of 'old school' edm records in online stores that were redigitized from vinyl, and you can tell just looking at the wave forms the difference in how they were mastered, and they sound noticeably _worse_ than modern EDM records, with much less powerful bass. It's actually sort of interesting how they worked around that with more dynamics in older records to make the bass pop more, but I'm not sure that it's better over all, it's just different.
  - deleted 3y ago
coldtea 3y ago
>but vinyl and CD differences have nothing to do with it The kind of do. With vinyl if you master like this you're making the grooves (the paths where the needle runs in) more pronounced, meaning less space for music (which is a premium in CDs compared to streaming, and even more so to vinyl compared to CDs: many vinyl "double albums" could have beeen a single CD). And it can make the needle jump around or have issues too. So vinyl kind of forces you to master with actual dynamics, as opposed to squashing everything.
aidos 3y ago
Big sleeves and art, but for me it’s the ceremony. I just love taking that time to really appreciate what you’re about to listen to. Filtering along the spines and having something jump out that grabs you and you know it’s the album for now. Yeah, there’s probably a compromise in quality, but for me the experience is just better. I miss my vinyl collection a lot. Really wish it was easier to ship it to the other side of the world but I’ve struggled to find a way.
- bamboozled 3y ago
  Some people actually like "Material objects". I personally do. A well made tool, nice suit, a nice pen and piece of paper a leather lounge, and of course a nicely printed record cover and the feeling of loading the thing in the player. I think society has lost a bit of that with digital stuff.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    Video games used to come in these big, thick cardboard boxes with elaborate art. Inside it was a thick manual, a quick fact sheet or two, and the game itself in a proper jewel case. You bet I wouldn't mind paying full price for that.
    - allturtles 3y ago
      RPGs would also often come with world maps, sometimes on cloth. Some games also came with amazing reference guides. Red Baron (1990) iirc had a spiral bound guide with information on ww1 fighter tactics and schematics of all the planes in the game.
    - bamboozled 3y ago
      I remember, it was an awesome time.
- m463 3y ago
  I remember getting the albums out of the sleeves, then the paper inner sleeve. Then spraying shooting my discwasher with an anti-static gun. I think there was a special deionized water you could drip on it too. Then you would clean around the disk and put it on the turntable. I had an automatic turntable, I wasn't into dropping the needle on the disk by hand.
RachelF 3y ago
It's been happening for a long time. Back when one had to rip CDs I was surprised by how many recordings clipped. It wasn't just pop, good classical studios like Deutshe Gramaphon also did it.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
I miss when they designed the ordering of tracks to complement a side 1 and side 2.
dtgriscom 3y ago
> I miss vinyl records for only one thing: big sleeves and their art. I had a copy of Fleetwood Mac's "Tusk". Double-album in a hinged sleeve, with each album having an inner sleeve. That gave eight big surfaces for art, and they certainly used it. Lovely.
kimi 3y ago
If they do it, they are not "incompetent"; it's just that is what people want/expect. You cannot afford to be the quiet piece after an ultra-powwah one when on radio on streaming....

wolrah 3y ago

> but vinyl and CD differences have nothing to do with it; it's just incompetent producers and sound engineers aiming at making their work more loud to attract listeners. The physical limitations of vinyl don't allow it to be pushed as hard as a digital medium, or even tape, can be. It's kind of like making a road that only allows air-cooled VWs and noting that speeding drops to almost zero.

ZiiS 3y ago
Till someone makes a Porsche.

pgeorgi 3y ago

If everybody went for vinyl, they'd bring the loudness war over as far as it's possible (the medium is more limited). Right now, sound engineers, not incompetent at all, optimize CDs for the CD audience (and for the most part, they preferentially buy "louder," even if they'd deny it if you ask) and vinyl for those freaks who maintain their diamond needle. So vinyl sounds better _because_ it's a hipster medium.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
copperx 3y ago
> optimize CDs for the CD audience CDs haven't been on anyone's radar for a long time.

eyelidlessness 3y ago

> Yeah, loudness war is a plague, but vinyl and CD differences have nothing to do with it; it's just incompetent producers and sound engineers aiming at making their work more loud to attract listeners. The claim (not directly made by the article, but generally made to support the difference) is that vinyl’s physical characteristics limit how “loud” a recording can be. Specifically, that a vinyl pressing of a “brick walled” recording becomes unplayable—or at least unreliably playable—because its physical tracks are insufficient to keep a stylus in place for playback. I don’t know how true that claim is, but the analysis seems cromulent, and analysis of comparable media seems to support it well enough. It isn’t a claim that pressing vinyl attracts or requires better production etc, but that the medium has inherent physical constraints that benefit, at least as a side effect, from greater dynamic range.

starkparker 3y ago
It's quite true. Vinyl mastering is very different from digital, or even mastering for tape or other analog formats. Sibilance is terrifying in vinyl mastering. The properties of different groove lengths influence track order on albums because tolerances are different on the outer end of the record than the inner end, and you can squeeze out more fidelity by sacrificing duration with wider grooves. There are a few general tricks here: https://www.sageaudio.com/articles/how-to-master-for-vinyl https://www.sageaudio.com/articles/how-to-master-for-vinyl but in practice there are so many variables that vinyl mastering engineers are worth their weight in gold, and there's some significant investment made in trying to automate most of all of it algorithmically or via ML/AI.
empath-nirvana 3y ago
There are a lot of 'old school' edm records in online stores that were redigitized from vinyl, and you can tell just looking at the wave forms the difference in how they were mastered, and they sound noticeably _worse_ than modern EDM records, with much less powerful bass. It's actually sort of interesting how they worked around that with more dynamics in older records to make the bass pop more, but I'm not sure that it's better over all, it's just different.
- deleted 3y ago

coldtea 3y ago

>but vinyl and CD differences have nothing to do with it The kind of do. With vinyl if you master like this you're making the grooves (the paths where the needle runs in) more pronounced, meaning less space for music (which is a premium in CDs compared to streaming, and even more so to vinyl compared to CDs: many vinyl "double albums" could have beeen a single CD). And it can make the needle jump around or have issues too. So vinyl kind of forces you to master with actual dynamics, as opposed to squashing everything.

aidos 3y ago

Big sleeves and art, but for me it’s the ceremony. I just love taking that time to really appreciate what you’re about to listen to. Filtering along the spines and having something jump out that grabs you and you know it’s the album for now. Yeah, there’s probably a compromise in quality, but for me the experience is just better. I miss my vinyl collection a lot. Really wish it was easier to ship it to the other side of the world but I’ve struggled to find a way.

bamboozled 3y ago
Some people actually like "Material objects". I personally do. A well made tool, nice suit, a nice pen and piece of paper a leather lounge, and of course a nicely printed record cover and the feeling of loading the thing in the player. I think society has lost a bit of that with digital stuff.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  Video games used to come in these big, thick cardboard boxes with elaborate art. Inside it was a thick manual, a quick fact sheet or two, and the game itself in a proper jewel case. You bet I wouldn't mind paying full price for that.
  - allturtles 3y ago
    RPGs would also often come with world maps, sometimes on cloth. Some games also came with amazing reference guides. Red Baron (1990) iirc had a spiral bound guide with information on ww1 fighter tactics and schematics of all the planes in the game.
  - bamboozled 3y ago
    I remember, it was an awesome time.
m463 3y ago
I remember getting the albums out of the sleeves, then the paper inner sleeve. Then spraying shooting my discwasher with an anti-static gun. I think there was a special deionized water you could drip on it too. Then you would clean around the disk and put it on the turntable. I had an automatic turntable, I wasn't into dropping the needle on the disk by hand.

RachelF 3y ago

It's been happening for a long time. Back when one had to rip CDs I was surprised by how many recordings clipped. It wasn't just pop, good classical studios like Deutshe Gramaphon also did it.

JKCalhoun 3y ago

I miss when they designed the ordering of tracks to complement a side 1 and side 2.

dtgriscom 3y ago

> I miss vinyl records for only one thing: big sleeves and their art. I had a copy of Fleetwood Mac's "Tusk". Double-album in a hinged sleeve, with each album having an inner sleeve. That gave eight big surfaces for art, and they certainly used it. Lovely.

kimi 3y ago

If they do it, they are not "incompetent"; it's just that is what people want/expect. You cannot afford to be the quiet piece after an ultra-powwah one when on radio on streaming....