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I know I'm ancient for saying this but.... """ led managers to prioritise digital natives for open roles, believing they are more adaptable than Gen Xers """

I know I'm ancient for saying this but.... """ led managers to prioritise digital natives for open roles, believing they are more adaptable than Gen Xers """ I'm an old millenial and there's truth to the joke that we have to help our parents AND our kids fix their printers. I have found the complete lack of fundamental computer skills in younger candidates ("what is a directory? Why would I ever need the terminal?") to be a challenge.

baq 3y ago
Kids in our time used to sit in front of computers, nowadays they are glued to their phones and phones have neither printers nor directories... (don't 'well, actually' please)
- sjducb 3y ago
  You’re explaining why the kids are bad at computers… I agree.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- addicted 3y ago
  I think the “printers” nor “directories” is a red herring. The problem is that computers could be configured. There were commands and scripts that you could run to fix things. So basically there was something to troubleshoot. You learns how to figure things out. Phones today have almost no configurations, and there are no scripts or commands to run to fix things that might be broken. There’s absolutely nothing for kids to learn other than switching it off and on again.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Phones today have almost no configurations My friends’ kids are plenty hacky on their phones. Not in an 80s sense. But in the configurations, with knowing various apps and websites through which to uniquely interact with the world, et cetera.
    - baq 3y ago
      Yeah exactly. They know how individual websites and apps work, but have very little insight into how the actual device and OS works. The browser is the OS, basically.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > have very little insight into how the actual device and OS works. The browser is the OS, basically As many of us have little clue how the hardware works, at the fundamental level, today. I am analogising the hacking we’re being nostalgic about with this higher-level hacking they’re doing today. It’s still hacking, and it’s incredibly sophisticated. It’s just that the layer that was at the forefront decades prior is no longer today. Someone has to maintain it, but it’s not where most opportunity is. This is a recent view of mine. But LLMs have set a cap on the relative value of pulling up a terminal.
      - Gigachad 3y ago
        That’s the same for basically everything. There’s a bit of writing that highlights how modern life is so complex that no one actually knows the full process of how a modern mass produced pencil is made. It’s just millions of people in their own bubble working on the little piece of the supply chain they understand.
  - 0xedd 3y ago
    Sure, because you've been limited to a high degree. Apple showed the world you can treat your customers like thick headed babies and they'll be thankful. Android is following suit. Slowly eroding the freedom we once had and the invitation to do more than the default. Look at this, for example https://developer.android.com/about/versions/10/behavior-changes-all#execute-permission https://developer.android.com/about/versions/10/behavior-cha... Why? Let me handle permissions. Don't choose, for me, whether I can chew steak or not. End of the day, we're trained to be idiots. School teaches us nothing. Products treat us like babies, strengthening idiocy. I mean, if a device breaks, we call the service guy and don't try and repair it ourselves, right? Because "changing a battery is life threatening. It must be outlawed." (- Apple) People are convinced, by ads and media campaigns, that all this is good. People are convinced they are using luxury devices.
    - JohnBooty 3y ago
      I'm struggling to think of a reaction besides "what a textbook case of Stockholm Syndrome." We certainly agree that there has been an erosion of computer skills among the younger generation(s) raised on appliance-like computing devices. No argument there. This is a loss. Full stop. Where we might differ is the question of whether or not this is a good thing in the larger context. The fact that everybody had to become subject matter experts in personal computing just to be effective with a personal computer in the 1980s and 1990s was a byproduct of the fact that personal computing was incredibly buggy and user-unfriendly for multiple decades. If everything in life was as balky as computers were, we'd never get anything done as a freaking human race. How many f'ing hours did we waste as a human race just getting printer drivers to install? I mean, think about all the hours you spent just getting printers to work and PCs to connect to the internet back in the day. It was rewarding in its own way, and it led to careers for many of us. Now imagine if everything was like that. Imagine if you couldn't use your car, the HVAC system in your house, or kitchen appliances effectively without hundreds of ours of ad-hoc experience gained through troubleshooting. For those that want to get their hands dirty, there's Linux and craploads of free development tools even on Mac and Linux. And for those that don't give a crap, computing devices function pretty well as appliances these days.
      - 3y ago
  - sorokod 3y ago
    I think configured is a red herring. Computers were and are an abstracting interface to functionality. Historically the abstraction was frequently leaking and the user had to make various adjustments. It could be argued the nowadays the leaking has been reduced to an extent that users can fully embrace the abstraction. That is not quite right, counter examples include "after two years of browsing my computer became slow, need a new one" and "I can't use that website, it is full of popup adverts".
  - jauntywundrkind 3y ago
    > Phones today have almost no configurations, and there are no scripts or commands to run to fix things that might be broken. I agree. To put it in somewhat starker terms, it might be your device, but we have rapidly eliminated ownership of the devices. It's not even all the War on General Purpose Computing; there's so many factors here: an expectation that apps/os just work/are simple, need for security sandboxing, and most of all imo the shift of more computing/resources into the cloud. Connected services where the app is a thin-client to far off systems, that's a huge shift away from the ownership model of computing we briefly had. It's hard for me to imagine what exactly might trigger a resurgence of the Personal Computing model. But computing, for the time being, is no longer ours, no longer humanities; it's heart has effervesced up into the cloud.
  - jasonm23 3y ago
    Also compare opportunities to open things up and see how they work... 80s, 90s, now...
- ryandrake 3y ago
  It’s not the end of the world though. My parents (who only knew how to use a TV) could and did learn how to use a computer. My kid (who only knows how to use a phone) can definitely learn how to use a computer. These aren’t mystical devices that only (current) 30-55 year olds will ever know how to use.
a_gnostic 3y ago
Same. Used to be able to tell old people to go ask a kid to troubleshoot their e-mail software, but it seems to stop at my generation.
sarreph 3y ago
Anecdotally, I don’t think anyone who isn’t interested in computers has ever had an easy time setting up a printer.
- darby_eight 3y ago
  I haven't had issues using a printer from my mac in about 25 years. I haven't tried from Windows, but I still needed to find and download a driver when I last tried from linux.
  - wil421 3y ago
    Same here. My Mac and iPhone find my WiFi printer with ease. The only issues I have are printer related, WiFi disconnects and waking on sleep.
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    Ubuntu has worked out of the box with every printer I've thrown at it since 2008 or so when I switched to Ubuntu. Literally tens of disparate printers from all manner of expensive laser printers to cheap no name ink jets. Both using USB and network interface.
  - superb_dev 3y ago
    It’s been less than 25 years, but I haven’t had issues printing from a Linux desktop in a long while. It’s as smooth as my apple devices
  - michaelt 3y ago
    I brought a black-and-white laser printer 20 years ago and, much like you, I haven't had a single problem since. My parents, in the meantime, have probably gone through 6 or 7 printers. For a truly cursed printing experience, here's my advice: * First of all, make sure it's an inkjet. They give the best colour print quality, you see. * Second, always be on the look out for a good deal. Why buy a $400 printer when you can buy a $50 one? As far as you know it'll be junk in 2-3 years anyway. * Third, get a wifi printer that doesn't have a screen, and make sure your wifi router doesn't support WPS. If the printer comes with an app, make sure it no longer works on your dated smartphone. Install the printer at the absolute edge of your wifi coverage. * Fourth, make sure it's a multifunction printer/scanner/copier, and always install the manufacturer's full suite of software. You want to be able to access all the features, don't you? Just follow these simple steps and before you know it, you'll have empathy with the many people who say printers suck.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> complete lack of fundamental computer skills in younger candidates Outside elite software engineering, as in writing papers engineering, isn’t this becoming more an art than a skill with LLMs?
- raverbashing 3y ago
  No because your boss still wants you to do some report in Google Docs (and no they can't use that neither) or work with a spreadsheet in Excel, or how to print a pdf etc
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > your boss still wants you to do some report in Google Docs (and no they can't use that neither) or work with a spreadsheet in Excel, or how to print a pdf This is in a different category from printer debugging or launching a terminal.
    - raverbashing 3y ago
      Yes but Gen-Z struggle with those simpler tasks as well
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Gen-Z struggle with those simpler tasks Not in my experience. I’m sure every generation has its winners and duds. Just saying Gen Z’s winners (by being better networked) seem to have a skillset uniquely honed at X’s weaknesses, much as Millenials seemed almost uniquely crafted to compete against their Boomer counterparts (by being more efficient).
        raverbashing 3y ago
        Good for you but it's not the experience a lot of people have https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/18mu8w3/why_does_gen_z_lack_the_technologytroubleshooting/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/18mu8w3/...
rob74 3y ago
Generally these stereotypes about various generations are highly questionable (as any stereotypes, of course). My nickname includes my birth year, so I'm even older than you, but I still grew up with computers and know more about them than many of the kids whose parents put an iPhone/iPad in their hands as soon as they could hold it...
basisword 3y ago
I think there was a sweet spot when your home computer didn’t have internet. You’d “use” the computer and there would be very little to do other than snoop around, fiddle with settings and try to make it do something interesting. When my computer is internetless today it’s useless. It was the same then but somehow I spent hours fiddling with it. It was the same for even less curious people. If you got a CD with some software and it wasn’t working right you had to just fiddle with it until it did. You couldn’t google the answer. You learn a lot through trial and error.
JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 3y ago
There is a disturbing number of young software engineers who have never installed or used Linux, and who don’t want to learn Python or Powershell for their job. They stick to what they know (usually C# or Typescript) and they have problems if they need to use a new tool or language.
- ben_w 3y ago
  It was always so. 24 years ago, I had to do my computing A-level[0] in Visual Basic because that was the only language the teacher knew. [0] UK thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-level
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jmrm 3y ago
  When I was in the University most people didn't know and didn't wanted to learn how to do that, and a couple of buddies and me helped the rest of folks with those needs. We were in an EE/Telco degree where we had to program in different languages and configure plenty of different software, so knowing to solve that kind of problems are relevant in the kind of work they were going to do in the future. The reality of that is how most of people are (or were?) in those degrees as a mere formality to get a good paying job, and interests are a secondary matter.
  - hackdads 3y ago
    This is the same story that I lived in the late 90's. My buddies and I would install every different distro, run through LFS build and that has turned into a very niche embedded systems expertise that is exactly where the industry is now. Every system has linux, qnx, or android. The university was so small that when we went to the IT department to "register" our computers for the network that the IT guys were excited that we were running linux.
- dagw 3y ago
  That is nothing new. I've met and worked with plenty of old software engineers who learnt C++ 30 years ago and don't want to learn anything new (not even modern C++) for their job.
stranded22 3y ago
Agree with this. I had to teach Excel to apprentices when they joined - just because they are digital natives, doesn’t mean they can actually use business tools.
- CalRobert 3y ago
  For what it's worth, I have spent much of the last several years undoing someone's untested pile of garbage in Excel and making clean, tested, code with reproducible results in DBT.....
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > just because they are digital natives, doesn’t mean they can actually use business tools. As I explained in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39789906 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39789906 "digital natives" refers to the fact that this is the first generation for which (rather consistently available) internet was something that they grew up with from very early childhood on, i.e. they "never saw the 'old world without consistently available internet' in their life". So, quite by definition, it does not imply that digitial natives can use common business tools.

baq 3y ago

Kids in our time used to sit in front of computers, nowadays they are glued to their phones and phones have neither printers nor directories... (don't 'well, actually' please)

sjducb 3y ago
You’re explaining why the kids are bad at computers… I agree.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
addicted 3y ago
I think the “printers” nor “directories” is a red herring. The problem is that computers could be configured. There were commands and scripts that you could run to fix things. So basically there was something to troubleshoot. You learns how to figure things out. Phones today have almost no configurations, and there are no scripts or commands to run to fix things that might be broken. There’s absolutely nothing for kids to learn other than switching it off and on again.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Phones today have almost no configurations My friends’ kids are plenty hacky on their phones. Not in an 80s sense. But in the configurations, with knowing various apps and websites through which to uniquely interact with the world, et cetera.
  - baq 3y ago
    Yeah exactly. They know how individual websites and apps work, but have very little insight into how the actual device and OS works. The browser is the OS, basically.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > have very little insight into how the actual device and OS works. The browser is the OS, basically As many of us have little clue how the hardware works, at the fundamental level, today. I am analogising the hacking we’re being nostalgic about with this higher-level hacking they’re doing today. It’s still hacking, and it’s incredibly sophisticated. It’s just that the layer that was at the forefront decades prior is no longer today. Someone has to maintain it, but it’s not where most opportunity is. This is a recent view of mine. But LLMs have set a cap on the relative value of pulling up a terminal.
    - Gigachad 3y ago
      That’s the same for basically everything. There’s a bit of writing that highlights how modern life is so complex that no one actually knows the full process of how a modern mass produced pencil is made. It’s just millions of people in their own bubble working on the little piece of the supply chain they understand.
- 0xedd 3y ago
  Sure, because you've been limited to a high degree. Apple showed the world you can treat your customers like thick headed babies and they'll be thankful. Android is following suit. Slowly eroding the freedom we once had and the invitation to do more than the default. Look at this, for example https://developer.android.com/about/versions/10/behavior-changes-all#execute-permission https://developer.android.com/about/versions/10/behavior-cha... Why? Let me handle permissions. Don't choose, for me, whether I can chew steak or not. End of the day, we're trained to be idiots. School teaches us nothing. Products treat us like babies, strengthening idiocy. I mean, if a device breaks, we call the service guy and don't try and repair it ourselves, right? Because "changing a battery is life threatening. It must be outlawed." (- Apple) People are convinced, by ads and media campaigns, that all this is good. People are convinced they are using luxury devices.
  - JohnBooty 3y ago
    I'm struggling to think of a reaction besides "what a textbook case of Stockholm Syndrome." We certainly agree that there has been an erosion of computer skills among the younger generation(s) raised on appliance-like computing devices. No argument there. This is a loss. Full stop. Where we might differ is the question of whether or not this is a good thing in the larger context. The fact that everybody had to become subject matter experts in personal computing just to be effective with a personal computer in the 1980s and 1990s was a byproduct of the fact that personal computing was incredibly buggy and user-unfriendly for multiple decades. If everything in life was as balky as computers were, we'd never get anything done as a freaking human race. How many f'ing hours did we waste as a human race just getting printer drivers to install? I mean, think about all the hours you spent just getting printers to work and PCs to connect to the internet back in the day. It was rewarding in its own way, and it led to careers for many of us. Now imagine if everything was like that. Imagine if you couldn't use your car, the HVAC system in your house, or kitchen appliances effectively without hundreds of ours of ad-hoc experience gained through troubleshooting. For those that want to get their hands dirty, there's Linux and craploads of free development tools even on Mac and Linux. And for those that don't give a crap, computing devices function pretty well as appliances these days.
    - 3y ago
- sorokod 3y ago
  I think configured is a red herring. Computers were and are an abstracting interface to functionality. Historically the abstraction was frequently leaking and the user had to make various adjustments. It could be argued the nowadays the leaking has been reduced to an extent that users can fully embrace the abstraction. That is not quite right, counter examples include "after two years of browsing my computer became slow, need a new one" and "I can't use that website, it is full of popup adverts".
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  > Phones today have almost no configurations, and there are no scripts or commands to run to fix things that might be broken. I agree. To put it in somewhat starker terms, it might be your device, but we have rapidly eliminated ownership of the devices. It's not even all the War on General Purpose Computing; there's so many factors here: an expectation that apps/os just work/are simple, need for security sandboxing, and most of all imo the shift of more computing/resources into the cloud. Connected services where the app is a thin-client to far off systems, that's a huge shift away from the ownership model of computing we briefly had. It's hard for me to imagine what exactly might trigger a resurgence of the Personal Computing model. But computing, for the time being, is no longer ours, no longer humanities; it's heart has effervesced up into the cloud.
- jasonm23 3y ago
  Also compare opportunities to open things up and see how they work... 80s, 90s, now...
ryandrake 3y ago
It’s not the end of the world though. My parents (who only knew how to use a TV) could and did learn how to use a computer. My kid (who only knows how to use a phone) can definitely learn how to use a computer. These aren’t mystical devices that only (current) 30-55 year olds will ever know how to use.

a_gnostic 3y ago

Same. Used to be able to tell old people to go ask a kid to troubleshoot their e-mail software, but it seems to stop at my generation.

sarreph 3y ago

Anecdotally, I don’t think anyone who isn’t interested in computers has ever had an easy time setting up a printer.

darby_eight 3y ago
I haven't had issues using a printer from my mac in about 25 years. I haven't tried from Windows, but I still needed to find and download a driver when I last tried from linux.
- wil421 3y ago
  Same here. My Mac and iPhone find my WiFi printer with ease. The only issues I have are printer related, WiFi disconnects and waking on sleep.
- dotancohen 3y ago
  Ubuntu has worked out of the box with every printer I've thrown at it since 2008 or so when I switched to Ubuntu. Literally tens of disparate printers from all manner of expensive laser printers to cheap no name ink jets. Both using USB and network interface.
- superb_dev 3y ago
  It’s been less than 25 years, but I haven’t had issues printing from a Linux desktop in a long while. It’s as smooth as my apple devices
- michaelt 3y ago
  I brought a black-and-white laser printer 20 years ago and, much like you, I haven't had a single problem since. My parents, in the meantime, have probably gone through 6 or 7 printers. For a truly cursed printing experience, here's my advice: * First of all, make sure it's an inkjet. They give the best colour print quality, you see. * Second, always be on the look out for a good deal. Why buy a $400 printer when you can buy a $50 one? As far as you know it'll be junk in 2-3 years anyway. * Third, get a wifi printer that doesn't have a screen, and make sure your wifi router doesn't support WPS. If the printer comes with an app, make sure it no longer works on your dated smartphone. Install the printer at the absolute edge of your wifi coverage. * Fourth, make sure it's a multifunction printer/scanner/copier, and always install the manufacturer's full suite of software. You want to be able to access all the features, don't you? Just follow these simple steps and before you know it, you'll have empathy with the many people who say printers suck.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> complete lack of fundamental computer skills in younger candidates Outside elite software engineering, as in writing papers engineering, isn’t this becoming more an art than a skill with LLMs?

raverbashing 3y ago
No because your boss still wants you to do some report in Google Docs (and no they can't use that neither) or work with a spreadsheet in Excel, or how to print a pdf etc
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > your boss still wants you to do some report in Google Docs (and no they can't use that neither) or work with a spreadsheet in Excel, or how to print a pdf This is in a different category from printer debugging or launching a terminal.
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    Yes but Gen-Z struggle with those simpler tasks as well
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Gen-Z struggle with those simpler tasks Not in my experience. I’m sure every generation has its winners and duds. Just saying Gen Z’s winners (by being better networked) seem to have a skillset uniquely honed at X’s weaknesses, much as Millenials seemed almost uniquely crafted to compete against their Boomer counterparts (by being more efficient).
      - raverbashing 3y ago
        Good for you but it's not the experience a lot of people have https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/18mu8w3/why_does_gen_z_lack_the_technologytroubleshooting/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/18mu8w3/...

rob74 3y ago

Generally these stereotypes about various generations are highly questionable (as any stereotypes, of course). My nickname includes my birth year, so I'm even older than you, but I still grew up with computers and know more about them than many of the kids whose parents put an iPhone/iPad in their hands as soon as they could hold it...

basisword 3y ago

I think there was a sweet spot when your home computer didn’t have internet. You’d “use” the computer and there would be very little to do other than snoop around, fiddle with settings and try to make it do something interesting. When my computer is internetless today it’s useless. It was the same then but somehow I spent hours fiddling with it. It was the same for even less curious people. If you got a CD with some software and it wasn’t working right you had to just fiddle with it until it did. You couldn’t google the answer. You learn a lot through trial and error.

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 3y ago

There is a disturbing number of young software engineers who have never installed or used Linux, and who don’t want to learn Python or Powershell for their job. They stick to what they know (usually C# or Typescript) and they have problems if they need to use a new tool or language.

ben_w 3y ago
It was always so. 24 years ago, I had to do my computing A-level[0] in Visual Basic because that was the only language the teacher knew. [0] UK thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-level
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jmrm 3y ago
When I was in the University most people didn't know and didn't wanted to learn how to do that, and a couple of buddies and me helped the rest of folks with those needs. We were in an EE/Telco degree where we had to program in different languages and configure plenty of different software, so knowing to solve that kind of problems are relevant in the kind of work they were going to do in the future. The reality of that is how most of people are (or were?) in those degrees as a mere formality to get a good paying job, and interests are a secondary matter.
- hackdads 3y ago
  This is the same story that I lived in the late 90's. My buddies and I would install every different distro, run through LFS build and that has turned into a very niche embedded systems expertise that is exactly where the industry is now. Every system has linux, qnx, or android. The university was so small that when we went to the IT department to "register" our computers for the network that the IT guys were excited that we were running linux.
dagw 3y ago
That is nothing new. I've met and worked with plenty of old software engineers who learnt C++ 30 years ago and don't want to learn anything new (not even modern C++) for their job.

stranded22 3y ago

Agree with this. I had to teach Excel to apprentices when they joined - just because they are digital natives, doesn’t mean they can actually use business tools.

CalRobert 3y ago
For what it's worth, I have spent much of the last several years undoing someone's untested pile of garbage in Excel and making clean, tested, code with reproducible results in DBT.....
aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> just because they are digital natives, doesn’t mean they can actually use business tools. As I explained in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39789906 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39789906 "digital natives" refers to the fact that this is the first generation for which (rather consistently available) internet was something that they grew up with from very early childhood on, i.e. they "never saw the 'old world without consistently available internet' in their life". So, quite by definition, it does not imply that digitial natives can use common business tools.