4 ms·

> Strage to see that as an issue; SMS is clearly an inferior protocol compared to iMessage and it's useful to know when messages have been downgraded. Except t

> Strage to see that as an issue; SMS is clearly an inferior protocol compared to iMessage and it's useful to know when messages have been downgraded. Except that's not why the blue/green difference was created (at least historically). It dates back to the time where SMS messages cost money for each one sent (though plans often came with x free messages), so the green message was telling you it was (potentially) costing you money when sending/receiving messages. (US$ = greenbacks -> green = cost)

danaris 3y ago
That's also ahistorical. The green bubbles came first. iMessage didn't even exist for the first few years of the iPhone's life. All messages were green. Green could not have been chosen to indicate it cost money, because there was nothing to distinguish it from. Then, in 2011 (IIRC), iMessage was introduced, and the blue bubbles were to indicate both that it doesn't cost money, and that it supports several other capabilities (which have changed over the years—IIRC, it did not start out with end-to-end encryption, so the people boldly asserting that that's the primary reason for the distinction are also wrong).
baq 3y ago
The intent of the color doesn't matter. The actual effect of the color is what matters. Hopefully to the courts, anyway.
- tensor 3y ago
  The actual effect is to know when my message is secure. No, RCS or another protocol does not mean it’s secure, even if they have some encryption. The other app can still eavesdrop after the message has reached the end. But perhaps the courts would want to weaken security. It’s definitely a thorn in their side.
  - baq 3y ago
    The actual effect is ostracism of green bubbles. You literally get kicked out of social circles and get peer-pressured into buying an iPhone.
    - ziddoap 3y ago
      Does this.... actually happen? To like, people over the age of 10? If so, I'd almost be thankful to Apple for letting me know who not to bother being friends with. If someone in my social circle ostracized someone else because of their phone, they (the person doing the ostracizing) wouldn't be in my social circle anymore.
      - dvngnt_ 3y ago
        if you're not joking you can see countless examples on social media sites. it's not just friends it's family, coworkers. my friend group has a separate group chat for just android users and they get party invites after the main group does.
        ziddoap 3y ago
        I'm not joking, at all. I have never heard of this actually happening outside of when iPhone is a topic on HN. I don't really have other social media, so that might be a part of it. But in real life? Never once experienced this, or even know someone who has. my friend group has a separate group chat for just android users and they get party invites after the main group does. This makes no sense to me. You exclude some portion of your friends because your text bubble is green instead of blue? Why?
        Friskyseal 3y ago
        It absolutely happens in real life because of basic human nature. It creates friction in relationships, and even the most minimal amount of unecessary friction can cause divides or make it harder to connect. You seem to underestimate how lazy people can be. Imagine in 2010 you meet a potential romantic partner and they say, "Hey! Add me on Facebook!" And you reply, "Oh, I'm not on Facebook... can we just talk on the phone instead?" The person may go, "Oh, umm... sure, I guess." But then you never connect because you haven't made it as easy as possible; you've introduced a tiny amount of friction that a lot of people are just not willing to tolerate. If everyone else is on Facebook, why aren't you? In real life, it creates so much friction that yes, there is pressure to buy an iPhone and change your entire software ecosystem just to fit in and remove this barrier to relationships. It's just text messaging; it's ancient technology at this point and no company should have a monopoly on it in any form. At a minimum they should let other operating systems download iMessage—show them ads, charge a fee, I don't know. But creating a hardware-enforced wall around basic telecommunication is wrong.
  - 8note 3y ago
    How has apple pulled off an encryption scheme that prevents people from seeing the iPhone screen over somebody's shoulder? Eye to eye encryption?
- danaris 3y ago
  Let me propose a thought experiment. Remove the color from the equation entirely, and what do you think would happen when someone without an iPhone joins a group chat? Do you think everyone would ignore the change completely, even though it would mean they'd lose all the iMessage features that SMS/MMS group texts lack? Or do you think they'd just be more frustrated about it because it's harder to tell when it's happening, but treat people the same? Do you really think it has anything to do with the color of the bubbles, rather than the fact that SMS's featureset is much smaller than iMessage's?
  - baq 3y ago
    Yes, because it's the other way around now: if you have a green bubble, you don't get invited to the chat in the first place. A different thought experiment for you: assume feature parity between green and blue bubbles starts today, what do you think happens? Do green bubbles suddenly start getting invites to group chats?
    - danaris 3y ago
      ...Yes, and that's my point. It's not about the color, but lots of people are talking about it as if the color is the primary or sole cause of the ostracization—as if Apple marking iMessages differently than SMS messages is the root of the problem, rather than the disparity in features. I'm not going to try to deny that there are some people who a) would shun (ex?)friends for using an Android phone, and b) continue to shun them even once the actual reason for that goes away, because Lord there are some petty, shallow people in the world. I am going to say that I don't think it's Apple's or the government's business to try to fix that problem. If the government wants to force Apple to open up iMessage in some fashion, I think that's potentially reasonable, but holding Apple responsible for the cruelty and cliquishness of what must be a tiny subset of its users is just absurd.
- throw0101c 3y ago
  > The intent of the color doesn't matter. The actual effect of the color is what matters. Hopefully to the courts, anyway. Intent (often?) matters: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

danaris 3y ago

That's also ahistorical. The green bubbles came first. iMessage didn't even exist for the first few years of the iPhone's life. All messages were green. Green could not have been chosen to indicate it cost money, because there was nothing to distinguish it from. Then, in 2011 (IIRC), iMessage was introduced, and the blue bubbles were to indicate both that it doesn't cost money, and that it supports several other capabilities (which have changed over the years—IIRC, it did not start out with end-to-end encryption, so the people boldly asserting that that's the primary reason for the distinction are also wrong).

baq 3y ago

The intent of the color doesn't matter. The actual effect of the color is what matters. Hopefully to the courts, anyway.

tensor 3y ago
The actual effect is to know when my message is secure. No, RCS or another protocol does not mean it’s secure, even if they have some encryption. The other app can still eavesdrop after the message has reached the end. But perhaps the courts would want to weaken security. It’s definitely a thorn in their side.
- baq 3y ago
  The actual effect is ostracism of green bubbles. You literally get kicked out of social circles and get peer-pressured into buying an iPhone.
  - ziddoap 3y ago
    Does this.... actually happen? To like, people over the age of 10? If so, I'd almost be thankful to Apple for letting me know who not to bother being friends with. If someone in my social circle ostracized someone else because of their phone, they (the person doing the ostracizing) wouldn't be in my social circle anymore.
    - dvngnt_ 3y ago
      if you're not joking you can see countless examples on social media sites. it's not just friends it's family, coworkers. my friend group has a separate group chat for just android users and they get party invites after the main group does.
      - ziddoap 3y ago
        I'm not joking, at all. I have never heard of this actually happening outside of when iPhone is a topic on HN. I don't really have other social media, so that might be a part of it. But in real life? Never once experienced this, or even know someone who has. my friend group has a separate group chat for just android users and they get party invites after the main group does. This makes no sense to me. You exclude some portion of your friends because your text bubble is green instead of blue? Why?
        Friskyseal 3y ago
        It absolutely happens in real life because of basic human nature. It creates friction in relationships, and even the most minimal amount of unecessary friction can cause divides or make it harder to connect. You seem to underestimate how lazy people can be. Imagine in 2010 you meet a potential romantic partner and they say, "Hey! Add me on Facebook!" And you reply, "Oh, I'm not on Facebook... can we just talk on the phone instead?" The person may go, "Oh, umm... sure, I guess." But then you never connect because you haven't made it as easy as possible; you've introduced a tiny amount of friction that a lot of people are just not willing to tolerate. If everyone else is on Facebook, why aren't you? In real life, it creates so much friction that yes, there is pressure to buy an iPhone and change your entire software ecosystem just to fit in and remove this barrier to relationships. It's just text messaging; it's ancient technology at this point and no company should have a monopoly on it in any form. At a minimum they should let other operating systems download iMessage—show them ads, charge a fee, I don't know. But creating a hardware-enforced wall around basic telecommunication is wrong.
- 8note 3y ago
  How has apple pulled off an encryption scheme that prevents people from seeing the iPhone screen over somebody's shoulder? Eye to eye encryption?
danaris 3y ago
Let me propose a thought experiment. Remove the color from the equation entirely, and what do you think would happen when someone without an iPhone joins a group chat? Do you think everyone would ignore the change completely, even though it would mean they'd lose all the iMessage features that SMS/MMS group texts lack? Or do you think they'd just be more frustrated about it because it's harder to tell when it's happening, but treat people the same? Do you really think it has anything to do with the color of the bubbles, rather than the fact that SMS's featureset is much smaller than iMessage's?
- baq 3y ago
  Yes, because it's the other way around now: if you have a green bubble, you don't get invited to the chat in the first place. A different thought experiment for you: assume feature parity between green and blue bubbles starts today, what do you think happens? Do green bubbles suddenly start getting invites to group chats?
  - danaris 3y ago
    ...Yes, and that's my point. It's not about the color, but lots of people are talking about it as if the color is the primary or sole cause of the ostracization—as if Apple marking iMessages differently than SMS messages is the root of the problem, rather than the disparity in features. I'm not going to try to deny that there are some people who a) would shun (ex?)friends for using an Android phone, and b) continue to shun them even once the actual reason for that goes away, because Lord there are some petty, shallow people in the world. I am going to say that I don't think it's Apple's or the government's business to try to fix that problem. If the government wants to force Apple to open up iMessage in some fashion, I think that's potentially reasonable, but holding Apple responsible for the cruelty and cliquishness of what must be a tiny subset of its users is just absurd.
throw0101c 3y ago
> The intent of the color doesn't matter. The actual effect of the color is what matters. Hopefully to the courts, anyway. Intent (often?) matters: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea