6 ms·

thinking about my iPhone-using non-nerd family, i believe the security warnings are a good thing and should not be outlawed. a good part of recommending a iPho

thinking about my iPhone-using non-nerd family, i believe the security warnings are a good thing and should not be outlawed. a good part of recommending a iPhone to non-technical people has always been that it does not have Android's massive security problems. it feels like the EU is doing its citizens a(nother) disservice here.

emgeee 3y ago
For real, scammers are going to be licking their lips
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  It makes you wonder who is actually pushing for this. Apple customers already voted with their wallets, myself included.
  - threeseed 3y ago
    EU has been trying for a long time to advance their home-grown startups. So you only need to look to Shopify, Proton etc and their extensive lobbying efforts.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      Why aren't Shopify and Proton listed above Apple and Microsoft here? https://www.lobbyfacts.eu/ https://www.lobbyfacts.eu/ If we're going to assume it's the evil lobbyists controlling the narrative, let's at least do it right.
      - threeseed 3y ago
        Because there is more to lobbying than how much money you donate. EU IT industry including key startups have been heavily lobbying EU to advance their interests against US companies. It’s not unique to EU and not exactly a secret.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        Yeah, it's not unique to the EU. Suffice to say we also don't put the US above such suspicions either.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    > Apple customers already voted with their wallets, myself included. And I'm an Apple customer who is pushing for this. And writing this very comment from a Mac Studio connected to a Pro Display XDR while my MBP sits on a stand next to my iPhone and iPad, and my Apple Watch on my wrist. We are not homogenous, and this borderline conspiracy isn't useful.
    - thebruce87m 3y ago
      I don’t think asking who is behind the lobbying is a conspiracy theory - in fact ignoring it is probably more dangerous. Most Apple users don’t care about third-party stores or even know what that means. The ones that do and also want it aren’t big enough to lobby so it’s companies with something to gain that are doing to lobbying. Nothing conspiracy about that.
cultureswitch 3y ago
People should stop pretending Apple products are secure in any sense of the word. Pegasus software and similar have been working just fine on iPhone. For literal _years_. Apple is fundamentally incapable and more to the point unwilling, to protect the users from external threats but especially from Apple itself. They are abusing their control over iOS and strip mining the users for data regardless.
- stephc_int13 3y ago
  Exactly. The alleged superior safety of Apple products is basically a myth. They are not even able (or willing) to curate their own store from blatant scams.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- frizlab 3y ago
  That is not an excuse to make it even more insecure, though.
  - _aavaa_ 3y ago
    The horror and insecurity of letting people choose what should go onto their device. Apple's increased security comes at the OS level. The OS prevents apps from accessing my contacts, not Apple's 30% tax.
  - pornel 3y ago
    This whole legislation probably wouldn't exist if Apple wasn't so greedy and manipulative for all these years. Apple has been bundling real security with brazen anti-competive behaviors, pretending they're all or nothing. If you don't want to be overcharged 10x for payments, the only option is fraud and malware (as opposed to processing payments at a market rate, or allowing vetted payment providers, having APIs for external subscriptions integrating with iOS's subscription management, etc.). Sandboxing and app reviews for malware are great, but Apple bundled them with rejecting apps for competing with Apple ("duplicating" their functionality), mentioning competitors' names, lower prices elsewhere, or showing nipples anywhere (nipples can't hack your iPhone). They've been intentionally blurring the line between what they select as appropriate for their boutique child-friendly store, and what users have right to do with devices they thought they own.
stephc_int13 3y ago
Guys, Apple (and others) have gone too far for too long with the monopolistic practices. This has to stop at some point, this is way too detrimental for the whole software ecosystem. They simply have too much power. The bullshit about the necessity of security warning for non-nerds family members is FUD.
jwells89 3y ago
At minimum, I think iOS should have something similar to the system in macOS which blocks known malware/badware. Some kind of local heuristics that can flag suspicious apps and informs the user when something fishy may be afoot may also be good. There are a number of patterns common to malware/scamware that an ML model should have little trouble picking up on — weird domains, convoluted URLs, recognizable brand mimicry, etc.
fauigerzigerk 3y ago
This was on HN a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39685272 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39685272 Certainly sounds like massive and systemic security problems in the App Store. I don't know if it's worse or better than on Android though.
FireBeyond 3y ago
> i believe the security warnings are a good thing and should not be outlawed. Here's the thing. They're only warning on non-App Store apps, which to me is also problematic, because it creates a perception of security on the App Store which isn't actually real. LassPass, anyone? Apple can allow actual turds like that on the App Store without a security warning, but the most inspected/reviewed app on an external store is getting a "downloading this app may be risky".
quitit 3y ago
It's a bit like the EU thinking that by forcing websites to surface their advertising partners/personal data practices it will encourage people to visit less privacy-invasive websites, when instead it's now rare to find a website that doesn't have the privacy click-through, making the web that little bit more tedious. Amusingly EU's favourite children epicgames.com and spotify.com have to show these pop-ups due to their data collection practices while "evil" apple doesn't have to show these pop-ups because they're not abusing visitor data. As for 3rd party app stores: Despite the EU's head-in-the-sand approach, I do expect that 3rd party stores will abuse direct access to customers to use dark patterns to exploit additional unwanted purchases, stymie refunds and make it difficult to unsubscribe. Why? Because this is what businesses such as Epic Games, New York Times and Spotify already do with their direct customers. It doesn't have to be malware to be a scam. People cheering for Epic Games seem to forget that just over a year ago Epic Games settled with the FTC for over half a billion dollars in fines for abusing their customers with predatory practices and invading the privacy of children(1). Side note: It's also rather sickening to see EU's DMA regulators such as Thierry Breton(2) using the marketing hashtag #freefortnite on their tweets. What a perfect demonstration of their lack of neutrality and promoting a company found to exploit its users. They clearly are not working in the interest of consumer protection, that's just a red herring for protectionism. (1) https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/12/fortnite-video-game-maker-epic-games-pay-more-half-billion-dollars-over-ftc-allegations https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/12/... (2) https://x.com/ThierryBreton/status/1766167580497117464 https://x.com/ThierryBreton/status/1766167580497117464
- simion314 3y ago
  I always decline the tracking from the websites so the EU laws had an effect giving me the option to decline. At my work we also did updates , for example purging the user data when they close their account. See changes happened, too bad that most websites decided to make the popups super evil and try to make it hard to decline, EU did not ask the websites to implement them like that, some other evil capitalists decided that screwing humans for a few dollars is worth it.
  - quitit 3y ago

emgeee 3y ago

For real, scammers are going to be licking their lips

thebruce87m 3y ago
It makes you wonder who is actually pushing for this. Apple customers already voted with their wallets, myself included.
- threeseed 3y ago
  EU has been trying for a long time to advance their home-grown startups. So you only need to look to Shopify, Proton etc and their extensive lobbying efforts.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    Why aren't Shopify and Proton listed above Apple and Microsoft here? https://www.lobbyfacts.eu/ https://www.lobbyfacts.eu/ If we're going to assume it's the evil lobbyists controlling the narrative, let's at least do it right.
    - threeseed 3y ago
      Because there is more to lobbying than how much money you donate. EU IT industry including key startups have been heavily lobbying EU to advance their interests against US companies. It’s not unique to EU and not exactly a secret.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        Yeah, it's not unique to the EU. Suffice to say we also don't put the US above such suspicions either.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  > Apple customers already voted with their wallets, myself included. And I'm an Apple customer who is pushing for this. And writing this very comment from a Mac Studio connected to a Pro Display XDR while my MBP sits on a stand next to my iPhone and iPad, and my Apple Watch on my wrist. We are not homogenous, and this borderline conspiracy isn't useful.
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    I don’t think asking who is behind the lobbying is a conspiracy theory - in fact ignoring it is probably more dangerous. Most Apple users don’t care about third-party stores or even know what that means. The ones that do and also want it aren’t big enough to lobby so it’s companies with something to gain that are doing to lobbying. Nothing conspiracy about that.

cultureswitch 3y ago

People should stop pretending Apple products are secure in any sense of the word. Pegasus software and similar have been working just fine on iPhone. For literal _years_. Apple is fundamentally incapable and more to the point unwilling, to protect the users from external threats but especially from Apple itself. They are abusing their control over iOS and strip mining the users for data regardless.

stephc_int13 3y ago
Exactly. The alleged superior safety of Apple products is basically a myth. They are not even able (or willing) to curate their own store from blatant scams.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
frizlab 3y ago
That is not an excuse to make it even more insecure, though.
- _aavaa_ 3y ago
  The horror and insecurity of letting people choose what should go onto their device. Apple's increased security comes at the OS level. The OS prevents apps from accessing my contacts, not Apple's 30% tax.
- pornel 3y ago
  This whole legislation probably wouldn't exist if Apple wasn't so greedy and manipulative for all these years. Apple has been bundling real security with brazen anti-competive behaviors, pretending they're all or nothing. If you don't want to be overcharged 10x for payments, the only option is fraud and malware (as opposed to processing payments at a market rate, or allowing vetted payment providers, having APIs for external subscriptions integrating with iOS's subscription management, etc.). Sandboxing and app reviews for malware are great, but Apple bundled them with rejecting apps for competing with Apple ("duplicating" their functionality), mentioning competitors' names, lower prices elsewhere, or showing nipples anywhere (nipples can't hack your iPhone). They've been intentionally blurring the line between what they select as appropriate for their boutique child-friendly store, and what users have right to do with devices they thought they own.

stephc_int13 3y ago

Guys, Apple (and others) have gone too far for too long with the monopolistic practices. This has to stop at some point, this is way too detrimental for the whole software ecosystem. They simply have too much power. The bullshit about the necessity of security warning for non-nerds family members is FUD.

jwells89 3y ago

At minimum, I think iOS should have something similar to the system in macOS which blocks known malware/badware. Some kind of local heuristics that can flag suspicious apps and informs the user when something fishy may be afoot may also be good. There are a number of patterns common to malware/scamware that an ML model should have little trouble picking up on — weird domains, convoluted URLs, recognizable brand mimicry, etc.

fauigerzigerk 3y ago

This was on HN a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39685272 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39685272 Certainly sounds like massive and systemic security problems in the App Store. I don't know if it's worse or better than on Android though.

FireBeyond 3y ago

> i believe the security warnings are a good thing and should not be outlawed. Here's the thing. They're only warning on non-App Store apps, which to me is also problematic, because it creates a perception of security on the App Store which isn't actually real. LassPass, anyone? Apple can allow actual turds like that on the App Store without a security warning, but the most inspected/reviewed app on an external store is getting a "downloading this app may be risky".

quitit 3y ago

It's a bit like the EU thinking that by forcing websites to surface their advertising partners/personal data practices it will encourage people to visit less privacy-invasive websites, when instead it's now rare to find a website that doesn't have the privacy click-through, making the web that little bit more tedious. Amusingly EU's favourite children epicgames.com and spotify.com have to show these pop-ups due to their data collection practices while "evil" apple doesn't have to show these pop-ups because they're not abusing visitor data. As for 3rd party app stores: Despite the EU's head-in-the-sand approach, I do expect that 3rd party stores will abuse direct access to customers to use dark patterns to exploit additional unwanted purchases, stymie refunds and make it difficult to unsubscribe. Why? Because this is what businesses such as Epic Games, New York Times and Spotify already do with their direct customers. It doesn't have to be malware to be a scam. People cheering for Epic Games seem to forget that just over a year ago Epic Games settled with the FTC for over half a billion dollars in fines for abusing their customers with predatory practices and invading the privacy of children(1). Side note: It's also rather sickening to see EU's DMA regulators such as Thierry Breton(2) using the marketing hashtag #freefortnite on their tweets. What a perfect demonstration of their lack of neutrality and promoting a company found to exploit its users. They clearly are not working in the interest of consumer protection, that's just a red herring for protectionism. (1) https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/12/fortnite-video-game-maker-epic-games-pay-more-half-billion-dollars-over-ftc-allegations https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/12/... (2) https://x.com/ThierryBreton/status/1766167580497117464 https://x.com/ThierryBreton/status/1766167580497117464

simion314 3y ago
I always decline the tracking from the websites so the EU laws had an effect giving me the option to decline. At my work we also did updates , for example purging the user data when they close their account. See changes happened, too bad that most websites decided to make the popups super evil and try to make it hard to decline, EU did not ask the websites to implement them like that, some other evil capitalists decided that screwing humans for a few dollars is worth it.
- quitit 3y ago