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That's a silly anecdote and I have a hard time believing chip fab line workers are too much different from those in other types of high-tech (where I spent 15 y

That's a silly anecdote and I have a hard time believing chip fab line workers are too much different from those in other types of high-tech (where I spent 15 years working on test automation & quality systems). Some smart folks, for sure, but almost zero roles required even actual engineering background. A lot of management had strong technical education, but the vast majority of line workers are just following simple instructions. I could be wrong about how fabs work, of course, and would love to learn more.

nonethewiser 3y ago
I think people are also underestimating the intelligence of people in the once very large manufacturing workforce.
- bluGill 3y ago
  It doesn't help that the union culture is opposed to promoting smart people. If you work an assembly line you are not better than anyone else on the line, so their position makes sense - smart people are not worth more. However it also means smart people that want to move to management (want - if you are content that is your choice) find things worse: you are required to start at the bottom and your previous experience doesn't count for anything (including the pension)
  - smallmancontrov 3y ago
    The decline in American manufacturing happened alongside a decline in union membership in manufacturing. If unions were the causal factor, why do these trends coincide rather than oppose? Alternative theory: Protectionism industrializes and trade liberalization deindustrializes. Alexander Hamilton's protectionist policies weren't just successful at industrializing the USA, he and his successors were correct as to why they were successful. The relatively recent shift to trade liberalization, by contrast, had the generally accepted effect of such policies on the industrial base. Of course, assets got pumped along the way and that's what really mattered to the people in charge.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      the only cause here is higher wages make other countries more compelling. The not promoting is a problem but it isn't the cause of decline.
    - lupire 3y ago
      Trade liberalization industrializes the world. Unions were gutted because the labor market grew beyond international borders, but the labor movement didn't (thanks to western capitalists making war on socialists.)
curiousllama 3y ago
Having seen a few 'high tech' places myself: there's high tech, and then there's _high tech_. Assembling a motherboard is to semiconductor fabs as flying a toy drone is to landing a Boeing 747. One you can learn in an afternoon; the other takes years to learn.
- nickff 3y ago
  You cannot learn to assemble a motherboard using modern manufacturing equipment in an afternoon. Pick-and-place operation is a week-long course alone (specific to that machine, and assuming you are already familiar with the process), and there are at least a screen printer and reflow oven involved as well.
  - curiousllama 3y ago
    Yea fair lol - def an exaggeration. (And my experience is def not first hand, here) But still - a lot easier than semiconductors
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  One of the most critical aspects of engineering is making it so advanced high tech things can be manufactured by the least skilled and least number of skilled people possible. Don't confuse that with the workers not being skilled - many are, but just like good software, you want your designs to run well even when executed by the worst hardware.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Actually engineering often means need more skilled workers as the unskilled work was replaced. 1 person running the machine who understands more of the engineering as opposed to 100 with a saw.
- duped 3y ago
  Making PhD engineers operate/maintain/monitor a wire bonding machine seems expensive. I worked in an R&D fab (albeit, as an intern, many years ago) with an abnormal number of PhDs around (the fab was essentially a small scale test bed for new products and processes - everything tested there first before scaling up overseas). I think we had a 5:1 ratio of techs to engineers. This was in a fab that basically did nothing but R&D and low volume manufacturing for defense. It's comparable to any kind of high-tech manufacturing where you have engineers designing/testing stuff (and designing the tools to make and test the stuff in the first place) while there have to be techs/mechanics/machine shop workers to actually do the work of making it. It's inefficient and expensive to put the engineers on that task, while they'll still need to do it from time to time.
nicechianti 3y ago
[dead]
0xEF 3y ago
Just in case they are paying attention, I would love to relocate and go to work for Intel. Following simple instructions sounds terrific, to me. Where do I send my resume?
znpy 3y ago
> but almost zero roles required even actual engineering background Small anecdote: pat gelsinger, intel ceo, started as a technician at intel (iirc) at like years old or something like that. That entry level job paid enough that he could have a roof on his head and i guess covered his university tuition? I’m not making this up: it’s all in his book he wrote about his life (not sure I recommend the book)
- rhelz 3y ago
  True, but Pat Gelsinger isn't a good example of what public policy we should pursue to help Joe six-packs enjoy a middle-class life. Gelsinger is one of the few people I would follow blindly into the maws of hell itself; his intellect is exceeded only by his ability to lead.
  - selimthegrim 3y ago
    LTI and Santa Clara are not public institutions.
  - znpy 3y ago
    Have you worked with the guy, like, in person or are you just being an enthusiastic fan? Just trying to understand your point of view.
  - isthatafact 3y ago
    I am a little bit fascinated by the way that many people seem to think so highly of Gelsinger, and I even think it is possible that he will succeed in leveraging that to make Intel competitive. However, just from his public persona of wildly optimistic sales/marketing pitches and showmanship, while outsourcing their own manufacturing to TSMC, I have a very bad impression. Then his claims of Intel zettaflop machines by 2027 honestly make me think he is totally delusional, but maybe that does not matter.
laborcontract 3y ago
You're missing the broader point here which is that TSMC pays roughly $50k/year for people with these skills. Sure, you may be able to find the talent pool, but at what price?
- shiroiushi 3y ago
  I think an important question here is: how exactly can TSMC afford to pay $50k for people with these skills? And why is that impossible in the US? I think this comes down to relative cost-of-living differences: the US is just too expensive to live in these days. Taiwan is not a super low-cost-of-living country by any means, but the US has gotten ridiculously expensive compared to most other peer nations, and this means it's pricing itself out of the market with anything where it needs to compete. Personally, I think America's reliance on cars and its suburban layout is a big part of this. Workers in Taipei don't need to own a car to get to work, and the overall infrastructure cost per capita is much lower.

nonethewiser 3y ago

I think people are also underestimating the intelligence of people in the once very large manufacturing workforce.

bluGill 3y ago
It doesn't help that the union culture is opposed to promoting smart people. If you work an assembly line you are not better than anyone else on the line, so their position makes sense - smart people are not worth more. However it also means smart people that want to move to management (want - if you are content that is your choice) find things worse: you are required to start at the bottom and your previous experience doesn't count for anything (including the pension)
- smallmancontrov 3y ago
  The decline in American manufacturing happened alongside a decline in union membership in manufacturing. If unions were the causal factor, why do these trends coincide rather than oppose? Alternative theory: Protectionism industrializes and trade liberalization deindustrializes. Alexander Hamilton's protectionist policies weren't just successful at industrializing the USA, he and his successors were correct as to why they were successful. The relatively recent shift to trade liberalization, by contrast, had the generally accepted effect of such policies on the industrial base. Of course, assets got pumped along the way and that's what really mattered to the people in charge.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    the only cause here is higher wages make other countries more compelling. The not promoting is a problem but it isn't the cause of decline.
  - lupire 3y ago
    Trade liberalization industrializes the world. Unions were gutted because the labor market grew beyond international borders, but the labor movement didn't (thanks to western capitalists making war on socialists.)

curiousllama 3y ago

Having seen a few 'high tech' places myself: there's high tech, and then there's _high tech_. Assembling a motherboard is to semiconductor fabs as flying a toy drone is to landing a Boeing 747. One you can learn in an afternoon; the other takes years to learn.

nickff 3y ago
You cannot learn to assemble a motherboard using modern manufacturing equipment in an afternoon. Pick-and-place operation is a week-long course alone (specific to that machine, and assuming you are already familiar with the process), and there are at least a screen printer and reflow oven involved as well.
- curiousllama 3y ago
  Yea fair lol - def an exaggeration. (And my experience is def not first hand, here) But still - a lot easier than semiconductors
Workaccount2 3y ago
One of the most critical aspects of engineering is making it so advanced high tech things can be manufactured by the least skilled and least number of skilled people possible. Don't confuse that with the workers not being skilled - many are, but just like good software, you want your designs to run well even when executed by the worst hardware.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Actually engineering often means need more skilled workers as the unskilled work was replaced. 1 person running the machine who understands more of the engineering as opposed to 100 with a saw.
duped 3y ago
Making PhD engineers operate/maintain/monitor a wire bonding machine seems expensive. I worked in an R&D fab (albeit, as an intern, many years ago) with an abnormal number of PhDs around (the fab was essentially a small scale test bed for new products and processes - everything tested there first before scaling up overseas). I think we had a 5:1 ratio of techs to engineers. This was in a fab that basically did nothing but R&D and low volume manufacturing for defense. It's comparable to any kind of high-tech manufacturing where you have engineers designing/testing stuff (and designing the tools to make and test the stuff in the first place) while there have to be techs/mechanics/machine shop workers to actually do the work of making it. It's inefficient and expensive to put the engineers on that task, while they'll still need to do it from time to time.

nicechianti 3y ago

[dead]

0xEF 3y ago

Just in case they are paying attention, I would love to relocate and go to work for Intel. Following simple instructions sounds terrific, to me. Where do I send my resume?

znpy 3y ago

> but almost zero roles required even actual engineering background Small anecdote: pat gelsinger, intel ceo, started as a technician at intel (iirc) at like years old or something like that. That entry level job paid enough that he could have a roof on his head and i guess covered his university tuition? I’m not making this up: it’s all in his book he wrote about his life (not sure I recommend the book)

rhelz 3y ago
True, but Pat Gelsinger isn't a good example of what public policy we should pursue to help Joe six-packs enjoy a middle-class life. Gelsinger is one of the few people I would follow blindly into the maws of hell itself; his intellect is exceeded only by his ability to lead.
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  LTI and Santa Clara are not public institutions.
- znpy 3y ago
  Have you worked with the guy, like, in person or are you just being an enthusiastic fan? Just trying to understand your point of view.
- isthatafact 3y ago
  I am a little bit fascinated by the way that many people seem to think so highly of Gelsinger, and I even think it is possible that he will succeed in leveraging that to make Intel competitive. However, just from his public persona of wildly optimistic sales/marketing pitches and showmanship, while outsourcing their own manufacturing to TSMC, I have a very bad impression. Then his claims of Intel zettaflop machines by 2027 honestly make me think he is totally delusional, but maybe that does not matter.

laborcontract 3y ago

You're missing the broader point here which is that TSMC pays roughly $50k/year for people with these skills. Sure, you may be able to find the talent pool, but at what price?

shiroiushi 3y ago
I think an important question here is: how exactly can TSMC afford to pay $50k for people with these skills? And why is that impossible in the US? I think this comes down to relative cost-of-living differences: the US is just too expensive to live in these days. Taiwan is not a super low-cost-of-living country by any means, but the US has gotten ridiculously expensive compared to most other peer nations, and this means it's pricing itself out of the market with anything where it needs to compete. Personally, I think America's reliance on cars and its suburban layout is a big part of this. Workers in Taipei don't need to own a car to get to work, and the overall infrastructure cost per capita is much lower.