11 ms·

United Arab Emirates is using cloud seeding tech to make it rain

52 points by AlgoRitmo 3y ago

hunter-2 3y ago
I live in Dubai, and the rains this year appear to be more frequent than the last two years. Perhaps the new seeding material is showing results
JR1427 3y ago
I wonder if large-scale cloud seeding could have the effect of taking rain from places that would otherwise get it?
- kibwen 3y ago
  It would have to, unless you also consciously increase the rate of evaporation at the same time. Could be bad news for countries with arid neighbors to their direct west.
  - s_dev 3y ago
    Sounds a bit like the dispute between Ethiopia and Egypt over Nile Water (Ethiopia is building a dam) so definitely plenty of political precedent for conflict over water resources and this will exacerbate this.
  - gorpy7 3y ago
    I don’t think it can be assumed. if the rain increased vegetation, i wouldn’t rule out an increased water cycle and greater amount of water in the area in general. Honestly, i wouldn’t be surprised if it benefited neighbors. I’m no expert and there are countless variables, maybe a high percentage of the rain used then sent right into the ground as waste water- never to have the chance to evaporate. or never taken up by vegetation at all. Time reveals all, despite whether this was a hasty experiment.
    - kibwen 3y ago
      True, while it will certainly remove moisture from the air that would necessarily have fallen elsewhere, it's difficult to say whether or not it would cause measurable decreases in rainfall in places that would notice it. For example, we know that reforestation actually increases precipitation downwind, as trees draw water out of the Earth, which then evaporates out of their leaves. However, a nation that's seeding clouds isn't going to be doing it because they're trying to create rainforests, they'll be doing it because they want agriculture and clean drinking water, and it's unclear whether or not that can possibly give more than it takes from downwind neighbors.
- justrealist 3y ago
  Possible but a lot of rain just falls in the middle of the ocean, so not a great loss.
  - barbazoo 3y ago
    If that moisture they're making fall out of the sky is guaranteed to end up falling above the ocean otherwise then sure. Otherwise you'll get conflict.
  - globular-toast 3y ago
    Which will now wash a load of filth from the land into the ocean instead.
- whalesalad 3y ago
  the moisture has to come from somewhere, nothin is free
beefman 3y ago
https://www.makerain.com/ https://www.makerain.com/
ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago
It's amazing how much new tech is getting tested in the middle east. In the next 30 years I think they are the future.
- rob74 3y ago
  This tech is not really new - in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, "cloud seeding" airplanes have been flying for years (to avoid hailstorms rather than to make it rain), although the efficacy of the method is disputed, so it's not really widespread. I only learned that this is done where I live when I saw a small airplane flying dangerously close to an approaching storm (which GA aircraft usually do their best to avoid) and then read an article about how they miscalculated the strength/direction of the storm and barely managed to avoid it. Wikipedia article (only available in German): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagelabwehr#Einsatz_in_Deutschland https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagelabwehr#Einsatz_in_Deutsch... Article about the history of anti-hail airplanes in the Rosenheim region: https://www.hagelabwehr-rosenheim.de/geschichtliches.php https://www.hagelabwehr-rosenheim.de/geschichtliches.php
  - volleygman180 3y ago
    It's been happening in the US for quite awhile too. For example, Colorado regularly performs cloud seeding and other weather modification techniques - https://cwcb.colorado.gov/focus-areas/supply/weather-modification-program https://cwcb.colorado.gov/focus-areas/supply/weather-modific...
    - rsbrans 3y ago
      [dead]
- lm28469 3y ago
  It's a huge pile of dead sand with load of petrol... They're fighting the clock to stay relevant by buying all kind of foreign assets and attracting investors but no amount of tech will change the fundamentals
barbazoo 3y ago
> The United Nations projects that by 2025, 1.8 billion people will face absolute water scarcity across the world. The Middle East stood out as one of the most water-stressed areas with around 83% of the population in the region prone to experiencing high levels of water stress. > Weather forecasters at the center can observe precipitation patterns in clouds and identify suitable clouds to seed, with the aim of increasing the rate of rainfall. Once they spot the right cloud, they instruct pilots to take to the air with their specialized aircrafts loaded with hygroscopic flares on the plane’s wings. I wonder if someone did the math of what that would look like at scale. How much would using kerosene to deliver the cloud seed material to introduce rain accelerate the problem we're trying to solve here? We can only hope that we find a way to electrify that fleet of airplanes or switch to something that's much less energy intensive like drones.
- genman 3y ago
  The weather is not the problem. Overpopulation is. And it is a local problem, so limiting population elsewhere doesn't help.
  - lukan 3y ago
    You can call it overpopulation, I call it underdesalination. There is lot's of sun there and lot's of seawater.
    - barbazoo 3y ago
      According to ChatGPT it takes at least 3 kWh to desalinate 1000l of salt-water. Following that math and its estimates on solar panels that would come down to 0.003 m^2 of solar panels per liters. UAE is about 83.6 billion m^2, lets assume half of that can be covered in solar panels, so that would be enough to desalinate 13 trillion liters of water. That sounds like it could be enough for a country like UAE by a factor of 10, if ChatGPT's math is right (probably not) and water can be desalinated instantly (probably not).
      - 3y ago
djha-skin 3y ago
Cloud seeding is illegal in Utah, because you're taking rain that would have fallen on someone else's field and making it fall on your field. Water rights are a serious business here in the desert. It's not that we can't do these things, it's just that it's not always a good idea.
- calibas 3y ago
  California & Nevada actively practice cloud seeding, I wonder if that affects Utah.
- yau8edq12i 3y ago
  Why are these people farming in the desert to begin with?
  - throwaway_08932 3y ago
    Because if they weren't, they wouldn't be there?
  - silisili 3y ago
    There are a -lot- of stuff grown in desert climates, believe it or not. I think it's a fine idea, just that the price needs to accurately reflect the water usage and only then determine if it's worth continuing or not. Right now it's not really factored in at all, and cities are starting to crunch for water. As an anecdote, I currently live in the desert, and the pecan farmers nearby use so much water that we get mosquitos pretty badly at times of the year.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > rain that would have fallen on someone else's field Or in the ocean?
rohanm93 3y ago
in Dubai and whatever they’re doing this definitely working - over just the last month-ish we’ve had a 4-8 days of extremely heavy rains (and gov alerts to stay in), when just two years ago it’d be a surprise if it rained 3 days all year
- csomar 3y ago
  That's actually climate change and the desert is prone for that. I don't think they are seeding these heavy rains as usually they can turn into a disaster.
dustfinger 3y ago
> The NCM said it does not use any harmful chemicals in its operations. “Our specialized aircrafts only use natural salts, and no harmful chemicals,” the organization told CNBC. How many times have companies been wrong about the harm chemicals they use in products have on humans and the rest of nature? How many times have they simply withheld knowledge of harmful chemicals in consumer products or outright lied? I think weather control is a mistake because I cannot trust those leading or manufacturing it. Even if someone posts a link documenting the exact chemical composition being used in these cloud seeding projects, it won't mean much to me because I am not a chemist and I am also jaded with a lifetime of reading about companies producing harmful products that they insisted are benign or even healthy. I don't trust what they publish anymore by default. We have to breath the air they are pumping those "salts" into, we have to drink the water.
- jajko 3y ago
  It shouldn't be absolutely impossible to trust them. If ie those 'salts' are naturally occurring in atmosphere in already reasonable concentration (ie I am sure few atoms of uranium are roaming around me currently, but sure as hell I hope its just few and apart) and they just locally temporarily increase their concentration to seed droplets around dew point. But that's probably about it, anything else and I agree with you.
  - dustfinger 3y ago
    I will do some reading up on the different techniques being used. I am just at a low point in my trust for companies at the moment.
  - dustfinger 3y ago
    > If ie those 'salts' are naturally occurring in atmosphere in already reasonable concentration (ie I am sure few atoms of uranium are roaming around me currently, but sure as hell I hope its just few and apart) and they just locally temporarily increase their concentration to seed droplets around dew point. In this particular case, they are not using anything that is already floating around in our atmosphere. They created some proprietary seeding agent they only refer to as "nano material" and that it contains titanium oxide. Who knows what impact it will have. > Al Mandous said the center started manufacturing its own seeding agent called nano material, a fine salt coated with titanium oxide, which is more effective than what it uses currently. Doesn't a seeding agent described as a "nano material" that is coated in tatanium contradict their earlier claim that they "only use natural salts?" > “Our specialized aircrafts only use natural salts, and no harmful chemicals,”
csomar 3y ago
Based on this: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-arab-emirates/precipitation https://tradingeconomics.com/united-arab-emirates/precipitat... I don't think it's working or making any real change. There are two clues for this: 1. There is no mention of historical precipitation improvements in the article; and 2. If it was successful I'd expect more countries to be doing it.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  China practices cloud seeding. You find it being used in odd places, but it isn't very rare.
avens19 3y ago
Here in Calgary we use cloud seeding to reduce the impact of hail storms. If meteorologists predict a hail storm, they will seed the clouds outside of urban territory to reduce the property damage caused by the hail
nf3 3y ago
I imagine it would take a very serious effort to green up a hard desert like that, but it is well known that forests are capable of generating rain through photosynthesis and evapotranspiration. Some large scale projects have already been undertaken, such as the restoration of the loess plateau in China, or the currently ongoing effort to establish a green belt across Africa to stop the Sahara desert from spreading southward.

52 points by AlgoRitmo 3y ago

I live in Dubai, and the rains this year appear to be more frequent than the last two years. Perhaps the new seeding material is showing results

JR1427 3y ago

I wonder if large-scale cloud seeding could have the effect of taking rain from places that would otherwise get it?

kibwen 3y ago
It would have to, unless you also consciously increase the rate of evaporation at the same time. Could be bad news for countries with arid neighbors to their direct west.
- s_dev 3y ago
  Sounds a bit like the dispute between Ethiopia and Egypt over Nile Water (Ethiopia is building a dam) so definitely plenty of political precedent for conflict over water resources and this will exacerbate this.
- gorpy7 3y ago
  I don’t think it can be assumed. if the rain increased vegetation, i wouldn’t rule out an increased water cycle and greater amount of water in the area in general. Honestly, i wouldn’t be surprised if it benefited neighbors. I’m no expert and there are countless variables, maybe a high percentage of the rain used then sent right into the ground as waste water- never to have the chance to evaporate. or never taken up by vegetation at all. Time reveals all, despite whether this was a hasty experiment.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    True, while it will certainly remove moisture from the air that would necessarily have fallen elsewhere, it's difficult to say whether or not it would cause measurable decreases in rainfall in places that would notice it. For example, we know that reforestation actually increases precipitation downwind, as trees draw water out of the Earth, which then evaporates out of their leaves. However, a nation that's seeding clouds isn't going to be doing it because they're trying to create rainforests, they'll be doing it because they want agriculture and clean drinking water, and it's unclear whether or not that can possibly give more than it takes from downwind neighbors.
justrealist 3y ago
Possible but a lot of rain just falls in the middle of the ocean, so not a great loss.
- barbazoo 3y ago
  If that moisture they're making fall out of the sky is guaranteed to end up falling above the ocean otherwise then sure. Otherwise you'll get conflict.
- globular-toast 3y ago
  Which will now wash a load of filth from the land into the ocean instead.
whalesalad 3y ago
the moisture has to come from somewhere, nothin is free

beefman 3y ago

https://www.makerain.com/ https://www.makerain.com/

ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago

It's amazing how much new tech is getting tested in the middle east. In the next 30 years I think they are the future.

rob74 3y ago
This tech is not really new - in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, "cloud seeding" airplanes have been flying for years (to avoid hailstorms rather than to make it rain), although the efficacy of the method is disputed, so it's not really widespread. I only learned that this is done where I live when I saw a small airplane flying dangerously close to an approaching storm (which GA aircraft usually do their best to avoid) and then read an article about how they miscalculated the strength/direction of the storm and barely managed to avoid it. Wikipedia article (only available in German): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagelabwehr#Einsatz_in_Deutschland https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagelabwehr#Einsatz_in_Deutsch... Article about the history of anti-hail airplanes in the Rosenheim region: https://www.hagelabwehr-rosenheim.de/geschichtliches.php https://www.hagelabwehr-rosenheim.de/geschichtliches.php
- volleygman180 3y ago
  It's been happening in the US for quite awhile too. For example, Colorado regularly performs cloud seeding and other weather modification techniques - https://cwcb.colorado.gov/focus-areas/supply/weather-modification-program https://cwcb.colorado.gov/focus-areas/supply/weather-modific...
  - rsbrans 3y ago
    [dead]
lm28469 3y ago
It's a huge pile of dead sand with load of petrol... They're fighting the clock to stay relevant by buying all kind of foreign assets and attracting investors but no amount of tech will change the fundamentals

barbazoo 3y ago

> The United Nations projects that by 2025, 1.8 billion people will face absolute water scarcity across the world. The Middle East stood out as one of the most water-stressed areas with around 83% of the population in the region prone to experiencing high levels of water stress. > Weather forecasters at the center can observe precipitation patterns in clouds and identify suitable clouds to seed, with the aim of increasing the rate of rainfall. Once they spot the right cloud, they instruct pilots to take to the air with their specialized aircrafts loaded with hygroscopic flares on the plane’s wings. I wonder if someone did the math of what that would look like at scale. How much would using kerosene to deliver the cloud seed material to introduce rain accelerate the problem we're trying to solve here? We can only hope that we find a way to electrify that fleet of airplanes or switch to something that's much less energy intensive like drones.

genman 3y ago
The weather is not the problem. Overpopulation is. And it is a local problem, so limiting population elsewhere doesn't help.
- lukan 3y ago
  You can call it overpopulation, I call it underdesalination. There is lot's of sun there and lot's of seawater.
  - barbazoo 3y ago
    According to ChatGPT it takes at least 3 kWh to desalinate 1000l of salt-water. Following that math and its estimates on solar panels that would come down to 0.003 m^2 of solar panels per liters. UAE is about 83.6 billion m^2, lets assume half of that can be covered in solar panels, so that would be enough to desalinate 13 trillion liters of water. That sounds like it could be enough for a country like UAE by a factor of 10, if ChatGPT's math is right (probably not) and water can be desalinated instantly (probably not).
    - 3y ago

djha-skin 3y ago

Cloud seeding is illegal in Utah, because you're taking rain that would have fallen on someone else's field and making it fall on your field. Water rights are a serious business here in the desert. It's not that we can't do these things, it's just that it's not always a good idea.

calibas 3y ago
California & Nevada actively practice cloud seeding, I wonder if that affects Utah.
yau8edq12i 3y ago
Why are these people farming in the desert to begin with?
- throwaway_08932 3y ago
  Because if they weren't, they wouldn't be there?
- silisili 3y ago
  There are a -lot- of stuff grown in desert climates, believe it or not. I think it's a fine idea, just that the price needs to accurately reflect the water usage and only then determine if it's worth continuing or not. Right now it's not really factored in at all, and cities are starting to crunch for water. As an anecdote, I currently live in the desert, and the pecan farmers nearby use so much water that we get mosquitos pretty badly at times of the year.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> rain that would have fallen on someone else's field Or in the ocean?

rohanm93 3y ago

in Dubai and whatever they’re doing this definitely working - over just the last month-ish we’ve had a 4-8 days of extremely heavy rains (and gov alerts to stay in), when just two years ago it’d be a surprise if it rained 3 days all year

csomar 3y ago
That's actually climate change and the desert is prone for that. I don't think they are seeding these heavy rains as usually they can turn into a disaster.

dustfinger 3y ago

> The NCM said it does not use any harmful chemicals in its operations. “Our specialized aircrafts only use natural salts, and no harmful chemicals,” the organization told CNBC. How many times have companies been wrong about the harm chemicals they use in products have on humans and the rest of nature? How many times have they simply withheld knowledge of harmful chemicals in consumer products or outright lied? I think weather control is a mistake because I cannot trust those leading or manufacturing it. Even if someone posts a link documenting the exact chemical composition being used in these cloud seeding projects, it won't mean much to me because I am not a chemist and I am also jaded with a lifetime of reading about companies producing harmful products that they insisted are benign or even healthy. I don't trust what they publish anymore by default. We have to breath the air they are pumping those "salts" into, we have to drink the water.

jajko 3y ago
It shouldn't be absolutely impossible to trust them. If ie those 'salts' are naturally occurring in atmosphere in already reasonable concentration (ie I am sure few atoms of uranium are roaming around me currently, but sure as hell I hope its just few and apart) and they just locally temporarily increase their concentration to seed droplets around dew point. But that's probably about it, anything else and I agree with you.
- dustfinger 3y ago
  I will do some reading up on the different techniques being used. I am just at a low point in my trust for companies at the moment.
- dustfinger 3y ago
  > If ie those 'salts' are naturally occurring in atmosphere in already reasonable concentration (ie I am sure few atoms of uranium are roaming around me currently, but sure as hell I hope its just few and apart) and they just locally temporarily increase their concentration to seed droplets around dew point. In this particular case, they are not using anything that is already floating around in our atmosphere. They created some proprietary seeding agent they only refer to as "nano material" and that it contains titanium oxide. Who knows what impact it will have. > Al Mandous said the center started manufacturing its own seeding agent called nano material, a fine salt coated with titanium oxide, which is more effective than what it uses currently. Doesn't a seeding agent described as a "nano material" that is coated in tatanium contradict their earlier claim that they "only use natural salts?" > “Our specialized aircrafts only use natural salts, and no harmful chemicals,”

csomar 3y ago

Based on this: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-arab-emirates/precipitation https://tradingeconomics.com/united-arab-emirates/precipitat... I don't think it's working or making any real change. There are two clues for this: 1. There is no mention of historical precipitation improvements in the article; and 2. If it was successful I'd expect more countries to be doing it.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
China practices cloud seeding. You find it being used in odd places, but it isn't very rare.

avens19 3y ago

Here in Calgary we use cloud seeding to reduce the impact of hail storms. If meteorologists predict a hail storm, they will seed the clouds outside of urban territory to reduce the property damage caused by the hail

nf3 3y ago

I imagine it would take a very serious effort to green up a hard desert like that, but it is well known that forests are capable of generating rain through photosynthesis and evapotranspiration. Some large scale projects have already been undertaken, such as the restoration of the loess plateau in China, or the currently ongoing effort to establish a green belt across Africa to stop the Sahara desert from spreading southward.