4 ms·

What do you mean cities need it not to die? Would you say Monaco is dead? What about Zurich? Oslo?

by rafaelero 3y ago

foldr 3y ago
Don't those all have a reputation of being rather dull and culturally insignificant in comparison to Paris?
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  Are you suggesting there's a strong correlation between the number of low-salary workers living in the city and the presence of the Louvre or the Centre Pompidou?
  - foldr 3y ago
    Are you suggesting that nothing of cultural significance has happened in Paris since the Louvre opened as a museum in 1793? Or that Paris's culture can be reduced to a set of buildings? Also, mixed income housing in Paris has a long history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_Paris#The_Haussmann_building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_Pa...
    - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
      >Are you suggesting that nothing of cultural significance has happened in Paris since the Louvre opened as a museum in 1793? No; I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. In fact, that seems like a fairly strange statement given that I mentioned the Centre Pompidou (opened in the 1970s) in practically the same breath. >Or that Paris's culture can be reduced to a set of buildings? No; again, not sure where that's coming from. My point, which you didn't address at all, was that you seemed to be implying that there was some kind of correlation between lower-income housing in cities and their cultural significance. Was that your goal? If so, can you explain further?
      - foldr 3y ago
        In a sentence: artists are poor. Hence the correlation. You can see this on a smaller scale with neighbourhoods in a given city. The culturally cutting edge neighbourhoods of NYC aren't the ones where all the rich people live.
walthamstow 3y ago
Monaco, absolutely yes, because most of the workers commute from France, they don't live in Monaco. Zurich and Oslo, I don't see the connection, they both have workers of all kinds, old and young people. They're organic and alive cities.
- throwaway11460 3y ago
  Monaco is artificially restricted from growing, how can you build a factory there if the state border can't be moved?
- IncreasePosts 3y ago
  Who cares if most of the people working there drive in from France? The point in Monaco farthest from France is like a 10 minute drive away.
  - walthamstow 3y ago
    If the workers don't live in the city, how can they be considered part of its lifeblood? All of their cultural pursuits happen elsewhere.
    - IncreasePosts 3y ago
      Well, they don't live there, but they spend probably 10 hours/day there, or 60% of their waking hours. Where someone sleeps doesn't seem too important.
      - walthamstow 3y ago
        I would say what a person does with their life outside of their working hours is rather important actually, particularly when we're talking about the life and culture of a city.
orwin 3y ago
Isn't it practically the same in Oslo, with rent control? And I don't know about Zurich, but Monaco is clearly dying. Luckily they can build on the sea (and do so), but it suffered greatly from covid and Russia invasion of Ukraine, as without the Russian mob, a lot of 'amenities' aren't as available, which slow the 35yo+ fratboy life.
nemo44x 3y ago
I don't get it either. Cities were dying for decades until people with money decided to move back into them and then they began to thrive. In fact, the actual data shows that as a city becomes more expensive it becomes more desirable and attracts more people and the city begins to grow. Places that were once considered off limits become spaces that are coveted. It's a flywheel that brings more and more prosperity. The best way to ruin that is to introduce masses of poor people to these areas. We did this in the starting in the late 1950's and the cities began to empty out because of the crime that came with it. As the poor constituency builds greater numbers they attract politicians that promise them things by stealing from those with money. This in turn chases those people away and the city is left poorer and poorer and becomes worse and worse. Once nice areas become undesirable and decay sets in.

What do you mean cities need it not to die? Would you say Monaco is dead? What about Zurich? Oslo?

foldr 3y ago

Don't those all have a reputation of being rather dull and culturally insignificant in comparison to Paris?

NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
Are you suggesting there's a strong correlation between the number of low-salary workers living in the city and the presence of the Louvre or the Centre Pompidou?
- foldr 3y ago
  Are you suggesting that nothing of cultural significance has happened in Paris since the Louvre opened as a museum in 1793? Or that Paris's culture can be reduced to a set of buildings? Also, mixed income housing in Paris has a long history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_Paris#The_Haussmann_building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_Pa...
  - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
    >Are you suggesting that nothing of cultural significance has happened in Paris since the Louvre opened as a museum in 1793? No; I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. In fact, that seems like a fairly strange statement given that I mentioned the Centre Pompidou (opened in the 1970s) in practically the same breath. >Or that Paris's culture can be reduced to a set of buildings? No; again, not sure where that's coming from. My point, which you didn't address at all, was that you seemed to be implying that there was some kind of correlation between lower-income housing in cities and their cultural significance. Was that your goal? If so, can you explain further?
    - foldr 3y ago
      In a sentence: artists are poor. Hence the correlation. You can see this on a smaller scale with neighbourhoods in a given city. The culturally cutting edge neighbourhoods of NYC aren't the ones where all the rich people live.

walthamstow 3y ago

Monaco, absolutely yes, because most of the workers commute from France, they don't live in Monaco. Zurich and Oslo, I don't see the connection, they both have workers of all kinds, old and young people. They're organic and alive cities.

throwaway11460 3y ago
Monaco is artificially restricted from growing, how can you build a factory there if the state border can't be moved?
IncreasePosts 3y ago
Who cares if most of the people working there drive in from France? The point in Monaco farthest from France is like a 10 minute drive away.
- walthamstow 3y ago
  If the workers don't live in the city, how can they be considered part of its lifeblood? All of their cultural pursuits happen elsewhere.
  - IncreasePosts 3y ago
    Well, they don't live there, but they spend probably 10 hours/day there, or 60% of their waking hours. Where someone sleeps doesn't seem too important.
    - walthamstow 3y ago
      I would say what a person does with their life outside of their working hours is rather important actually, particularly when we're talking about the life and culture of a city.

orwin 3y ago

Isn't it practically the same in Oslo, with rent control? And I don't know about Zurich, but Monaco is clearly dying. Luckily they can build on the sea (and do so), but it suffered greatly from covid and Russia invasion of Ukraine, as without the Russian mob, a lot of 'amenities' aren't as available, which slow the 35yo+ fratboy life.

nemo44x 3y ago

I don't get it either. Cities were dying for decades until people with money decided to move back into them and then they began to thrive. In fact, the actual data shows that as a city becomes more expensive it becomes more desirable and attracts more people and the city begins to grow. Places that were once considered off limits become spaces that are coveted. It's a flywheel that brings more and more prosperity. The best way to ruin that is to introduce masses of poor people to these areas. We did this in the starting in the late 1950's and the cities began to empty out because of the crime that came with it. As the poor constituency builds greater numbers they attract politicians that promise them things by stealing from those with money. This in turn chases those people away and the city is left poorer and poorer and becomes worse and worse. Once nice areas become undesirable and decay sets in.