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The US also has a per capita GDP 50% higher than Austria ($52,131 vs $76,399). At $52,131 a year per capita GDP, Austria would be neatly in second to last place

The US also has a per capita GDP 50% higher than Austria ($52,131 vs $76,399). At $52,131 a year per capita GDP, Austria would be neatly in second to last place as the poorest state in the Union, as it would beat Mississippi at $47,190 but be beaten by West Virginia at $53,852. So perhaps the US policy is doing something correctly.

detourdog 3y ago
I look at the numbers and think they demonstrate how much more efficient Austria is compared to any US state. I would prefer living in Austria to Mississippi.
- Amezarak 3y ago
  Less than 5% of households in Austria have air conditioning, vs 93% in Mississippi. Granted it gets hot and humid in Mississippi, but the average summer highs in Austria is a sometimes-muggy ~27C and it will probably get worse with climate change - heat waves up to 40C have already happened. I'll take the AC and the other conveniences the Americans have, though it would be nice to have the social atmosphere Austria has too. To a large degree, Austrian efficiency is just getting by with less than an American does.
  - BWStearns 3y ago
    European lack of AC is mostly that they historically haven't needed it. It's not like they can't afford ACs. Also, 27C (80° in freedom units) as your normal peak temp is pretty firmly in "why bother with AC" territory.
  - detourdog 3y ago
    I would rather compare education and healthcares since I value those more than A/C.
    - Amezarak 3y ago
      This is one of those things that are harder to compare. Mississippi, like all of the US, has free public K12 education. The public university system also extends automatic full scholarships for academically qualified (and the qualification is not that high) students, and also admits basically anyone else who is able to pay, though without academic qualifications they will have to take advantage of Pell Grants (free money but not much) and federal student loans. Of course, you could argue about the results of the system, and admitting students who are not going to succeed in college and thereby saddling them with debt in exchange for nothing is a failing of the US system. For health care, there are many publicly owned hospital systems in Mississippi, and of course Medicare is available for everyone 65+. Mississippi is not a Medicaid expansion state, so while Medicaid (free health care) is available for children, pregnant women, and the disabled, there is a coverage gap between that and qualifying for the ACA subsidies for health insurance (aka "Obamacare") which is sort of similar to the German system if you wave your hands; I think Austria has something similar, but I'm not familiar, but obviously the coverage is broader.
pdinny 3y ago
A more relevant measure might be median income per capita/household, adjusted for purchasing power. On that basis Austria does quite well. Additionally, quality of life amounts to more than measures for disposable income etc. If you consider access to education and healthcare the picture might take on greater depth.
bugglebeetle 3y ago
Oh yes, it’s much better to make 53K a year and live in West Virgina than Vienna. This is a sentiment with which everyone would agree.
- UncleEntity 3y ago
  What's wrong with West Virginia? If you used housing prices an an indication of desirability (and an attempt to stay on topic) people much prefer to live there than the smallish mid-western town that I bought a house in. I mean, trees and mountains instead of miles and miles of corn...
- orwin 3y ago
  To be honest West Virginia is the best US state (I also am close with back to landers communities, and visited through their lenses, so I am biased). Homemade booze (I don't drink, but still), homemade goat cheese (best cheese I had in the US), best kayaking rivers, great hiking trails, great people, great horses, great musicians. What's not to love.
  - bugglebeetle 3y ago
    The rates of childhood poverty and food insecurity, for starters.
sofixa 3y ago
How is GDP per capita relevant, especially not adjusted for purchasing power parity? For Austria the GDP per capita PPP is at $67-69k depending on the estimate, which would put it somewhere between 27 and 33 place of US states, so roughly in the middle. If you compare the Quality of Life Index, Austria is 9th, USA is 15th. Freedom Index - Austria is 93, USA is 83. HDI USA is 20th with 0.927, Austria is 22nd with 0.926. Another fun one is Cost of Living index which shows that Austria is significantly cheaper to live in compared to the US (66.8 vs 72.9 out of NYC). I can go on, but it's frankly ridiculous that you think GDP per capita is relevant, or somehow directly impacts the lives of Austrians and invalidates the good choices Austria and Vienna have made.
- Amezarak 3y ago
  I don't think most indices are very valuable - when you drill down into them, you usually find out there's a lot of decisions about what that really means made for you by some NGO or think-tank in order to get the desired result. That's not to say they still can't reflect some underlying true reality about "freedom" or whatever to some degree, but I don't think it's worth citing them in a discussion. You're quite correct he should have used GDP w/ PPP, but I don't think the fact that Austria would rank merely below-average rather than second-worst is a very powerful argument. And there is some truth to this: visit the average American household and they have a lot of material wealth compared to the average European. I remember being particularly shocked by the state Germans live in and find acceptable.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    > You're quite correct he should have used GDP w/ PPP, but I don't think the fact that Austria would rank merely below-average rather than second-worst is a very powerful argument It is, because they were implying that Austria having the social housing policies that it does, it severely impacts GDP; but it doesn't. A tiny mountainous country that was twice in the middle of disastrous wars in the last century, has practically no raw materials... and would be in the middle of the US GDP PPP-wise, which has a much bigger market, a lot more workers, a lot of raw materials, etc etc etc etc. And again, this is assuming GDP matters for the average person's life... and it doesn't. > visit the average American household and they have a lot of material wealth compared to the average European At the expense of crippling debt :) https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm (don't forget the fact that American savings have to account for losing your job or getting sick, as well as retirement, while in Austria they don't).
penetrarthur 3y ago
When comparing two developed countries only using GDP/per capita, make sure that the person you are debating with is way less educated than you are.
arethuza 3y ago
I think that just goes to show how misleading GDP can be!
malermeister 3y ago
Only an American could make this argument. Vienna tops global comparisons for quality of life all the time. Life expectancy is higher in Austria, as are safety, education standards and all other meaningful indicators. Who cares about some silly numbers on a bank account? We live good lives.

detourdog 3y ago

I look at the numbers and think they demonstrate how much more efficient Austria is compared to any US state. I would prefer living in Austria to Mississippi.

Amezarak 3y ago
Less than 5% of households in Austria have air conditioning, vs 93% in Mississippi. Granted it gets hot and humid in Mississippi, but the average summer highs in Austria is a sometimes-muggy ~27C and it will probably get worse with climate change - heat waves up to 40C have already happened. I'll take the AC and the other conveniences the Americans have, though it would be nice to have the social atmosphere Austria has too. To a large degree, Austrian efficiency is just getting by with less than an American does.
- BWStearns 3y ago
  European lack of AC is mostly that they historically haven't needed it. It's not like they can't afford ACs. Also, 27C (80° in freedom units) as your normal peak temp is pretty firmly in "why bother with AC" territory.
- detourdog 3y ago
  I would rather compare education and healthcares since I value those more than A/C.
  - Amezarak 3y ago
    This is one of those things that are harder to compare. Mississippi, like all of the US, has free public K12 education. The public university system also extends automatic full scholarships for academically qualified (and the qualification is not that high) students, and also admits basically anyone else who is able to pay, though without academic qualifications they will have to take advantage of Pell Grants (free money but not much) and federal student loans. Of course, you could argue about the results of the system, and admitting students who are not going to succeed in college and thereby saddling them with debt in exchange for nothing is a failing of the US system. For health care, there are many publicly owned hospital systems in Mississippi, and of course Medicare is available for everyone 65+. Mississippi is not a Medicaid expansion state, so while Medicaid (free health care) is available for children, pregnant women, and the disabled, there is a coverage gap between that and qualifying for the ACA subsidies for health insurance (aka "Obamacare") which is sort of similar to the German system if you wave your hands; I think Austria has something similar, but I'm not familiar, but obviously the coverage is broader.

pdinny 3y ago

A more relevant measure might be median income per capita/household, adjusted for purchasing power. On that basis Austria does quite well. Additionally, quality of life amounts to more than measures for disposable income etc. If you consider access to education and healthcare the picture might take on greater depth.

bugglebeetle 3y ago

Oh yes, it’s much better to make 53K a year and live in West Virgina than Vienna. This is a sentiment with which everyone would agree.

UncleEntity 3y ago
What's wrong with West Virginia? If you used housing prices an an indication of desirability (and an attempt to stay on topic) people much prefer to live there than the smallish mid-western town that I bought a house in. I mean, trees and mountains instead of miles and miles of corn...
orwin 3y ago
To be honest West Virginia is the best US state (I also am close with back to landers communities, and visited through their lenses, so I am biased). Homemade booze (I don't drink, but still), homemade goat cheese (best cheese I had in the US), best kayaking rivers, great hiking trails, great people, great horses, great musicians. What's not to love.
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  The rates of childhood poverty and food insecurity, for starters.

sofixa 3y ago

How is GDP per capita relevant, especially not adjusted for purchasing power parity? For Austria the GDP per capita PPP is at $67-69k depending on the estimate, which would put it somewhere between 27 and 33 place of US states, so roughly in the middle. If you compare the Quality of Life Index, Austria is 9th, USA is 15th. Freedom Index - Austria is 93, USA is 83. HDI USA is 20th with 0.927, Austria is 22nd with 0.926. Another fun one is Cost of Living index which shows that Austria is significantly cheaper to live in compared to the US (66.8 vs 72.9 out of NYC). I can go on, but it's frankly ridiculous that you think GDP per capita is relevant, or somehow directly impacts the lives of Austrians and invalidates the good choices Austria and Vienna have made.

Amezarak 3y ago
I don't think most indices are very valuable - when you drill down into them, you usually find out there's a lot of decisions about what that really means made for you by some NGO or think-tank in order to get the desired result. That's not to say they still can't reflect some underlying true reality about "freedom" or whatever to some degree, but I don't think it's worth citing them in a discussion. You're quite correct he should have used GDP w/ PPP, but I don't think the fact that Austria would rank merely below-average rather than second-worst is a very powerful argument. And there is some truth to this: visit the average American household and they have a lot of material wealth compared to the average European. I remember being particularly shocked by the state Germans live in and find acceptable.
- sofixa 3y ago
  > You're quite correct he should have used GDP w/ PPP, but I don't think the fact that Austria would rank merely below-average rather than second-worst is a very powerful argument It is, because they were implying that Austria having the social housing policies that it does, it severely impacts GDP; but it doesn't. A tiny mountainous country that was twice in the middle of disastrous wars in the last century, has practically no raw materials... and would be in the middle of the US GDP PPP-wise, which has a much bigger market, a lot more workers, a lot of raw materials, etc etc etc etc. And again, this is assuming GDP matters for the average person's life... and it doesn't. > visit the average American household and they have a lot of material wealth compared to the average European At the expense of crippling debt :) https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm (don't forget the fact that American savings have to account for losing your job or getting sick, as well as retirement, while in Austria they don't).

penetrarthur 3y ago

When comparing two developed countries only using GDP/per capita, make sure that the person you are debating with is way less educated than you are.

arethuza 3y ago

I think that just goes to show how misleading GDP can be!

malermeister 3y ago

Only an American could make this argument. Vienna tops global comparisons for quality of life all the time. Life expectancy is higher in Austria, as are safety, education standards and all other meaningful indicators. Who cares about some silly numbers on a bank account? We live good lives.