5 ms·

And yet Vienna is one of the most beautiful, livable cities in the world, with its masses of public housing, while major U.S. cities have homelessness crises an

And yet Vienna is one of the most beautiful, livable cities in the world, with its masses of public housing, while major U.S. cities have homelessness crises and TV shows about house flipping for profit. Perhaps we should stop debating things based on the hokum of Econ 101 textbooks and look at what in the real world has actually worked (e.g. abolishing most forms of zoning, massive investments in public housing, robust public transportation, drastically curbing real estate speculation).

brainwad 3y ago
Vienna has had the luxury of having had relatively little demand for housing for over a century. The population peaked in WWI and still hasn't recovered (it was 2.24m in 1916, 2.00m in 2023).
- trgn 3y ago
  Manhattan's population dropped 25% from its peak in the early 1900s. Pre-war was just a different era, this is more of a function of changing living standards, people live larger, not of contemporary housing dynamics.
- em-bee 3y ago
  vienna also had a lot of buildings destroyed in the war which increased the demand. population was as low as 1.5 or 1.6m in the late 80s/early 90s. it grew back to 2m in just a few decades, and it is going to continue to grow, so i'd argue that it has recovered quite well.
- malermeister 3y ago
  Vienna actually had a terrible housing crisis before the Austromarxists of Red Vienna built housing en masse. See this article for example: https://citymonitor.ai/environment/housing/red-vienna-how-austrias-capital-earned-its-place-in-housing-history https://citymonitor.ai/environment/housing/red-vienna-how-au...
  - brainwad 3y ago
    Right, that makes a lot of sense because the city absolutely exploded during the preceding decades. But having the population stagnate has certainly made it easier for them to catch up than if the population had kept increasing.
ecshafer 3y ago
The US also has a per capita GDP 50% higher than Austria ($52,131 vs $76,399). At $52,131 a year per capita GDP, Austria would be neatly in second to last place as the poorest state in the Union, as it would beat Mississippi at $47,190 but be beaten by West Virginia at $53,852. So perhaps the US policy is doing something correctly.
- detourdog 3y ago
  I look at the numbers and think they demonstrate how much more efficient Austria is compared to any US state. I would prefer living in Austria to Mississippi.
  - Amezarak 3y ago
    Less than 5% of households in Austria have air conditioning, vs 93% in Mississippi. Granted it gets hot and humid in Mississippi, but the average summer highs in Austria is a sometimes-muggy ~27C and it will probably get worse with climate change - heat waves up to 40C have already happened. I'll take the AC and the other conveniences the Americans have, though it would be nice to have the social atmosphere Austria has too. To a large degree, Austrian efficiency is just getting by with less than an American does.
    - BWStearns 3y ago
      European lack of AC is mostly that they historically haven't needed it. It's not like they can't afford ACs. Also, 27C (80° in freedom units) as your normal peak temp is pretty firmly in "why bother with AC" territory.
    - detourdog 3y ago
      I would rather compare education and healthcares since I value those more than A/C.
      - Amezarak 3y ago
        This is one of those things that are harder to compare. Mississippi, like all of the US, has free public K12 education. The public university system also extends automatic full scholarships for academically qualified (and the qualification is not that high) students, and also admits basically anyone else who is able to pay, though without academic qualifications they will have to take advantage of Pell Grants (free money but not much) and federal student loans. Of course, you could argue about the results of the system, and admitting students who are not going to succeed in college and thereby saddling them with debt in exchange for nothing is a failing of the US system. For health care, there are many publicly owned hospital systems in Mississippi, and of course Medicare is available for everyone 65+. Mississippi is not a Medicaid expansion state, so while Medicaid (free health care) is available for children, pregnant women, and the disabled, there is a coverage gap between that and qualifying for the ACA subsidies for health insurance (aka "Obamacare") which is sort of similar to the German system if you wave your hands; I think Austria has something similar, but I'm not familiar, but obviously the coverage is broader.

brainwad 3y ago

Vienna has had the luxury of having had relatively little demand for housing for over a century. The population peaked in WWI and still hasn't recovered (it was 2.24m in 1916, 2.00m in 2023).

trgn 3y ago
Manhattan's population dropped 25% from its peak in the early 1900s. Pre-war was just a different era, this is more of a function of changing living standards, people live larger, not of contemporary housing dynamics.
em-bee 3y ago
vienna also had a lot of buildings destroyed in the war which increased the demand. population was as low as 1.5 or 1.6m in the late 80s/early 90s. it grew back to 2m in just a few decades, and it is going to continue to grow, so i'd argue that it has recovered quite well.
malermeister 3y ago
Vienna actually had a terrible housing crisis before the Austromarxists of Red Vienna built housing en masse. See this article for example: https://citymonitor.ai/environment/housing/red-vienna-how-austrias-capital-earned-its-place-in-housing-history https://citymonitor.ai/environment/housing/red-vienna-how-au...
- brainwad 3y ago
  Right, that makes a lot of sense because the city absolutely exploded during the preceding decades. But having the population stagnate has certainly made it easier for them to catch up than if the population had kept increasing.

ecshafer 3y ago

The US also has a per capita GDP 50% higher than Austria ($52,131 vs $76,399). At $52,131 a year per capita GDP, Austria would be neatly in second to last place as the poorest state in the Union, as it would beat Mississippi at $47,190 but be beaten by West Virginia at $53,852. So perhaps the US policy is doing something correctly.

detourdog 3y ago
I look at the numbers and think they demonstrate how much more efficient Austria is compared to any US state. I would prefer living in Austria to Mississippi.
- Amezarak 3y ago
  Less than 5% of households in Austria have air conditioning, vs 93% in Mississippi. Granted it gets hot and humid in Mississippi, but the average summer highs in Austria is a sometimes-muggy ~27C and it will probably get worse with climate change - heat waves up to 40C have already happened. I'll take the AC and the other conveniences the Americans have, though it would be nice to have the social atmosphere Austria has too. To a large degree, Austrian efficiency is just getting by with less than an American does.
  - BWStearns 3y ago
    European lack of AC is mostly that they historically haven't needed it. It's not like they can't afford ACs. Also, 27C (80° in freedom units) as your normal peak temp is pretty firmly in "why bother with AC" territory.
  - detourdog 3y ago
    I would rather compare education and healthcares since I value those more than A/C.
    - Amezarak 3y ago
      This is one of those things that are harder to compare. Mississippi, like all of the US, has free public K12 education. The public university system also extends automatic full scholarships for academically qualified (and the qualification is not that high) students, and also admits basically anyone else who is able to pay, though without academic qualifications they will have to take advantage of Pell Grants (free money but not much) and federal student loans. Of course, you could argue about the results of the system, and admitting students who are not going to succeed in college and thereby saddling them with debt in exchange for nothing is a failing of the US system. For health care, there are many publicly owned hospital systems in Mississippi, and of course Medicare is available for everyone 65+. Mississippi is not a Medicaid expansion state, so while Medicaid (free health care) is available for children, pregnant women, and the disabled, there is a coverage gap between that and qualifying for the ACA subsidies for health insurance (aka "Obamacare") which is sort of similar to the German system if you wave your hands; I think Austria has something similar, but I'm not familiar, but obviously the coverage is broader.