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> Every Thursday, Jacques Baudrier, the Paris city councilor in charge of housing, scrolls through the list of properties being exchanged by sellers and buyers

> Every Thursday, Jacques Baudrier, the Paris city councilor in charge of housing, scrolls through the list of properties being exchanged by sellers and buyers on the private market. With some exceptions, the city has the legal right to pre-empt the sale of a building, buy the property and convert it to public housing. What are the mechanics of how this works? If I agree to buy a property for a million dollars, does the city get a chance to match that price?

drdo 3y ago
Yes, that's pretty much how it works. The city has the right to become the buyer for the specified price for any property sale.
baud147258 3y ago
> What are the mechanics of how this works? If I agree to buy a property for a million dollars, does the city get a chance to match that price? there's a French wiki page on this: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_de_pr%C3%A9emption_urbain#R%C3%A9gime_actuel https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_de_pr%C3%A9emption_urbai... But basically, yes, the city has 2 months to match the price. The city can also offer a lower price, which can be refused (so no sale at all) or can be argued in front of a special judge, who'd rule if the price offered by the city is acceptable, depending on the local housing market. It's not a rule that's specific to Paris, but which is applicable in most French cities.
- bertjk 3y ago
  So does this mean that every sale of any building can take at least two months?
  - mratsim 3y ago
    They always take two months at the very minimum as well because buyers as to go to many banks or a loan broker. You have notaries involved and right to step away from a sale, no question asked for 10 days iirc.
  - orwin 3y ago
    Not any, only old buildings built after a certain date. And two month to sell a building in France? It's fast.
  - willyt 3y ago
    2 months would be an ultra fast completion in the UK. I think when I bought my house it took 3 months, when I bought some land, cash purchase, it took more like 6 months.
  - estebank 3y ago
    I've seen the process to purchase a place in both France and California. The former can take the significant part of a year, the later a matter of days.
  - baud147258 3y ago
    From the experience of a few friends who've bought appartments these last years, two months would be the minimum here in France.
thope 3y ago
No, pre-empt here means you don't have a word, the town (commune) has priority and you can't make an offer
Ragnarork 3y ago
Basically, if your property is eligible for preemption, you have to declare that you intend to sell (at the price you wish) to the city, which can then tell you that - they don't intend to buy, in which case you can proceed with the sale - they buy at the price you've set - they make a counter-offer, which you have the right to refuse but then you also renounce to sell If there's a dispute on the price (especially in the third case), a tribunal will decide the eventual price, "based on the recent sale prices of similar properties".
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  I tend to lean lefty, but this scheme makes me understand why libertarians want less government How much my home is worth should not be capped by whatever government thinks. That's bs If government is counter offering all of my neighbors and they are accepting it, then I am screwed. I either accept the government counter offer or I go to tribunal who will cite all of the government's recent purchases from my neighbors to set the price at something very close to that anyways And if I don't like it, I'm legally not allowed to sell? Ridiculous Even if you don't think houses should be infinitely appreciating assets, which I don't, your asset worth should still be as valuable as someone is willing to pay for them, not controlled by a cartel style government
  - JBorrow 3y ago
    Whether you like it or not the government does tell you how much your house is worth through monetary policy.
  - Ragnarork 3y ago
    > I go to tribunal who will cite all of the government's recent purchases from my neighbors That's an assumption on your part. Both the owner and the city can mount a legal case as to why their price is the correct one. In practice, this is often done by comparison with other properties in the same area and with the same characteristics. The judge also gets to visit the actual property to have its own perspective on it. Both the owner and the city have access to the same data when it comes to properties sold and bought, and must establish their cases based on concrete notarial deeds. There are indeed cases where the city makes a counter-proposal with a price that is significantly lower than market rates, but you have court rulings that reject these and side with the owner. I don't think it's perfect, but it's not one-sided like you describe. It can be frustrating, but eventually the city is not just a bunch of houses piled up in a completely decentralized way, and the preemption right, which has exceptions, for example properties recently built cannot be preempted, and which isn't automatic, i.e. there are multiple recourses for owners, is there so that the city has some leeway to conduct policy with regards to housing.
zozbot234 3y ago
It's essentially the same as a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_first_refusal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_first_refusal
adolph 3y ago
> the city has the legal right to pre-empt the sale of a building, buy the property and convert it to public housing Sounds like every property sale is a political calculation ready for grease.

drdo 3y ago

Yes, that's pretty much how it works. The city has the right to become the buyer for the specified price for any property sale.

baud147258 3y ago

> What are the mechanics of how this works? If I agree to buy a property for a million dollars, does the city get a chance to match that price? there's a French wiki page on this: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_de_pr%C3%A9emption_urbain#R%C3%A9gime_actuel https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_de_pr%C3%A9emption_urbai... But basically, yes, the city has 2 months to match the price. The city can also offer a lower price, which can be refused (so no sale at all) or can be argued in front of a special judge, who'd rule if the price offered by the city is acceptable, depending on the local housing market. It's not a rule that's specific to Paris, but which is applicable in most French cities.

bertjk 3y ago
So does this mean that every sale of any building can take at least two months?
- mratsim 3y ago
  They always take two months at the very minimum as well because buyers as to go to many banks or a loan broker. You have notaries involved and right to step away from a sale, no question asked for 10 days iirc.
- orwin 3y ago
  Not any, only old buildings built after a certain date. And two month to sell a building in France? It's fast.
- willyt 3y ago
  2 months would be an ultra fast completion in the UK. I think when I bought my house it took 3 months, when I bought some land, cash purchase, it took more like 6 months.
- estebank 3y ago
  I've seen the process to purchase a place in both France and California. The former can take the significant part of a year, the later a matter of days.
- baud147258 3y ago
  From the experience of a few friends who've bought appartments these last years, two months would be the minimum here in France.

thope 3y ago

No, pre-empt here means you don't have a word, the town (commune) has priority and you can't make an offer

Ragnarork 3y ago

Basically, if your property is eligible for preemption, you have to declare that you intend to sell (at the price you wish) to the city, which can then tell you that - they don't intend to buy, in which case you can proceed with the sale - they buy at the price you've set - they make a counter-offer, which you have the right to refuse but then you also renounce to sell If there's a dispute on the price (especially in the third case), a tribunal will decide the eventual price, "based on the recent sale prices of similar properties".

bluefirebrand 3y ago
I tend to lean lefty, but this scheme makes me understand why libertarians want less government How much my home is worth should not be capped by whatever government thinks. That's bs If government is counter offering all of my neighbors and they are accepting it, then I am screwed. I either accept the government counter offer or I go to tribunal who will cite all of the government's recent purchases from my neighbors to set the price at something very close to that anyways And if I don't like it, I'm legally not allowed to sell? Ridiculous Even if you don't think houses should be infinitely appreciating assets, which I don't, your asset worth should still be as valuable as someone is willing to pay for them, not controlled by a cartel style government
- JBorrow 3y ago
  Whether you like it or not the government does tell you how much your house is worth through monetary policy.
- Ragnarork 3y ago
  > I go to tribunal who will cite all of the government's recent purchases from my neighbors That's an assumption on your part. Both the owner and the city can mount a legal case as to why their price is the correct one. In practice, this is often done by comparison with other properties in the same area and with the same characteristics. The judge also gets to visit the actual property to have its own perspective on it. Both the owner and the city have access to the same data when it comes to properties sold and bought, and must establish their cases based on concrete notarial deeds. There are indeed cases where the city makes a counter-proposal with a price that is significantly lower than market rates, but you have court rulings that reject these and side with the owner. I don't think it's perfect, but it's not one-sided like you describe. It can be frustrating, but eventually the city is not just a bunch of houses piled up in a completely decentralized way, and the preemption right, which has exceptions, for example properties recently built cannot be preempted, and which isn't automatic, i.e. there are multiple recourses for owners, is there so that the city has some leeway to conduct policy with regards to housing.

zozbot234 3y ago

It's essentially the same as a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_first_refusal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_first_refusal

adolph 3y ago

> the city has the legal right to pre-empt the sale of a building, buy the property and convert it to public housing Sounds like every property sale is a political calculation ready for grease.