3 ms·

> It’s a theme he returned to in his fireside chat, sharing a concern that the number of women participating in programming has decreased over the last 10 or 20

> It’s a theme he returned to in his fireside chat, sharing a concern that the number of women participating in programming has decreased over the last 10 or 20 years. “There’s definitely something wrong there, and it’s definitely something that really can’t be explained just by personal preference or anything like that.” Ugh, this is a really painfully uninformative platitude. First, how do we actually know it's not just personal preference? Obviously other factors are likely to contribute. But with no suggestions as to what those factors are or evidence demonstrating they are likely causes, this claim has no information content. And then second, what are the concrete steps for change? Is it the internship process he describes? Maybe it's clearer in the full talk than in the quotes pulled for this article.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tech_ken 3y ago
> how do we actually know it’s not just personal preference No studies on hand but having spent a lot of time in academia adjacent to CS you see a lot of departmental surveys and the like where women consistently report feeling pushed out, experiencing sexist harassment, or simply having a hard time connecting with peers when there’s a large gender imbalance. Obviously this doesn’t imply that personal preference plays no role, but I think that so long as these things are being reported it indicates that the discrepancy is not purely the result of preference, and at least partly reflects a systemic pressure away from the field(s).
- jimbokun 3y ago
  Yes, it would have been helpful if Spolsky cited any of this. (Again, maybe he did but it wasn't in the article.) There's a fair amount of research also demonstrating different distributions of interest in working with "things" vs. "people", with men leaning towards the former and women the latter. It would be interesting to tease apart how much each factors into the lack of women in software, but I imagine very difficult to accomplish.
  - tech_ken 3y ago
    Definitely agree that it’s likely a mix of factors, and certainly one that’s very difficult to untangle in a satisfactory way. Also it seems likely to be confounded by the usual “nature vs nurture” type issues. Like in the Star Trek TNG universe where no one has any material or societal constraints whatsoever would that same preference discrepancy show up? And even if it did, would it be attenuated in any ways by changes in cultural norms? Questions that are probably impossible to answer; still at least seems worthwhile to tackle the obvious low hanging fruit of causal sexism, harassment, etc.
throwaway984393 3y ago
[dead]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

tech_ken 3y ago

> how do we actually know it’s not just personal preference No studies on hand but having spent a lot of time in academia adjacent to CS you see a lot of departmental surveys and the like where women consistently report feeling pushed out, experiencing sexist harassment, or simply having a hard time connecting with peers when there’s a large gender imbalance. Obviously this doesn’t imply that personal preference plays no role, but I think that so long as these things are being reported it indicates that the discrepancy is not purely the result of preference, and at least partly reflects a systemic pressure away from the field(s).

jimbokun 3y ago
Yes, it would have been helpful if Spolsky cited any of this. (Again, maybe he did but it wasn't in the article.) There's a fair amount of research also demonstrating different distributions of interest in working with "things" vs. "people", with men leaning towards the former and women the latter. It would be interesting to tease apart how much each factors into the lack of women in software, but I imagine very difficult to accomplish.
- tech_ken 3y ago
  Definitely agree that it’s likely a mix of factors, and certainly one that’s very difficult to untangle in a satisfactory way. Also it seems likely to be confounded by the usual “nature vs nurture” type issues. Like in the Star Trek TNG universe where no one has any material or societal constraints whatsoever would that same preference discrepancy show up? And even if it did, would it be attenuated in any ways by changes in cultural norms? Questions that are probably impossible to answer; still at least seems worthwhile to tackle the obvious low hanging fruit of causal sexism, harassment, etc.

throwaway984393 3y ago

[dead]