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MacBook charger teardown: The surprising complexity inside Apple's power adapter (2015)
- java-man 3y agoThis article is from 2015. Still, it's always fun to read Ken's blog.
- epistasis 3y agoClassic article. I recently got a 30W Anker USB-C charger that is as small as the really old iPhone chargers, less than an inch cube, and it charges my M1 MacBook at full speed. It's far less than a third of the size of this 90W charger. I'd love to see a teardown of that, too.
- bhouston 3y agoThe trick is GAN technology: https://www.promate.net/blogs/blog/what-is-gan-technology https://www.promate.net/blogs/blog/what-is-gan-technology Half of my company has done the same and mostly Anker too. I got the charger/battery combo, as it is amazing for travel.
- Temporary_31337 3y ago[flagged]
- nehal3m 3y agoFor the uninitiated, can you explain like I’m five? Why are GaN chargers worse?
- creativeSlumber 3y agoGaN is just the transistor technology, how does that translate to bad for batteries?
- r00fus 3y agoIt's not the GaN, it's the higher wattage that's possible. Fast charging can increase device/battery temperature which, for fan-less designs like iPhones or MacBook Air, can lead to slightly higher degradation.
- creativeSlumber 3y agoThat's not correct and very misleading. The wattage is the max amount of power the charger can output. It's up to the device being charged to negotiate and pull the right amount of current and wattage. This is case with modern charging protocols and even older 5v usb chargers. This is similar to how you might have a 15A rated outlet in your house, but that doesn't mean it's going to "force" 15A though whatever device you plug into that. It's the device that determines how much power it will pull.
- r00fus 3y agoMy analogy is an EV - of course your EV isn't going to pull current that's dangerous but fast charging it has been shown to degrade battery life - especially if the EV doesn't have active cooling for the battery pack. Putting that EV on a slow charge that might be sufficient for an overnight charge might be better for the battery pack.
- hackmiester 3y agoYou are correct, but the comment didn't say "fast chargers," it said GaN. Here is a (very cute) 35W GaN charger. This would be considered fast charging for a phone, but not for a laptop. https://sharge.com/products/shargeek-retro-35-gan-charger https://sharge.com/products/shargeek-retro-35-gan-charger It is just plain inaccurate to state that GaN is the problem, or opens up new possibilities for fast charging. All it does is make the charger smaller.
- creativeSlumber 3y agoThis is a setting on the device side. The EV it self will decide how much current to pull, based on charging profile that you set. You are correct on that charging at higher currents can reduce battery cycle life, but it's the device it self that decides how much current to pull based on the charging profile that you selected. In your example with an EV,you set the charging profile on your vehicle, not the outside charger. The charger's job is to provide as much current/voltage as requested by the device.
- hackmiester 3y agoThat is not the case. Fast charging is worse for the battery, but a 60W GaN vs a 60W SiC charger is not going to treat your battery any different, for example.
- etskinner 3y agoWhat makes them not as nice for your battery?
- j45 3y agoI’d love to know why GaN is bad. As far as I understand electronics between the AC electricity and DC device make more of a difference
- kube-system 3y agoThe concern about chargers being 'good' or 'bad' for your battery is mostly an issue with 90s and 00s technologies where chargers directly interfaced with batteries. The way modern PD devices work, however the battery charges is entirely up to the onboard charge controller in your device. They always charge in accordance with how your device was designed to charge. We call them 'chargers' but really they're just power supplies.
- reaperman 3y agoI believe this is misinformation and probably should be flagged.
- hinkley 3y agoThe internal organization is also an interesting point. They keep the AC and DC sides air gapped so that no shenanigans can happen in a dying PSU.
- lxgr 3y agoAren't primary and secondary still connected for EMI management (causing the "weird buzzing sensation" when touching metal parts of connected devices)?
- hinkley 3y agoAbout a quarter of the way down there’s a section called, “The charger's underside: many tiny components” picture with a red line on it. Below it talks about it and claims only optoisolators connect the two sides. Obviously the transformer also connects the two sides, but you know what I mean.
- lxgr 3y agoHmm, then where is that stray voltage coming from that's definitely present (in my experience) on non-grounded MacBook chargers? I think that's what the Y capacitor does (also pictured in the article): https://www.vicorpower.com/resource-library/articles/back-to-basics-what-are-y-capacitors https://www.vicorpower.com/resource-library/articles/back-to...
- hinkley 3y agoI don't have an answer to that question, only an educated guess. But I gave up on getting it a long time ago. I use the three pronged connector unless I'm plugged into something like an inverter. Before that change I did end up throwing away a PSU that was causing tingling on my laptop. I don't know if that's a manufacturing flaw or damaged wiring. The educated guess as to the mechanism is 'floating ground' (the white wire has a potential versus earth ground). It causes weird behavior in house wiring, particularly ones that have had iteration in their wiring (remodels, additions). Then there's the one where LED lights turn on even if the switch is off, but I think that's a separate phenomenon from floating ground.
- j45 3y agoGaN is great for carrying weight and volume.
- jmholla 3y ago> as it is amazing for travel. Do the Anker one's come with international plugs? I didn't see any indication on their product pages that they come with the adapters. Nor could I find them for sell.
- thebruce87m 3y agoGet one with the “figure 8” cable connection and then get a figure 8 cable for your destination.
- edward28 3y agoThe term you are looking for is C5 connector.
- thebruce87m 3y agoThat may be what it’s called, but I never use it. Ironically I work closely with electronics engineers and we still use “kettle lead”, “figure 8” and similar in person since everyone knows what they mean. BOMs are a different kettle of fish of course.
- bombcar 3y agoI like “Mickey mouse cable” for C5.
- jmholla 3y agoI do like the form factor of the Anker. I was a little surprised that they don't come with international adapters. My Genki Switch charger does and it looks like they have a similar, removable plug adapter. Oh well, I'll probably follow your advice or checkout a different brand. Thanks!
- thebruce87m 3y agoI’ve got this one here, along with a couple of country specific power cables: https://www.anker.com/products/a2046?variant=42448630612118&collections_chargers=undefined&Sort_by=Recommended https://www.anker.com/products/a2046?variant=42448630612118&...
- duxup 3y agoI can't tell from the article the dimensions of that charger they are tearing down, but the article is from 2015.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dvirsky 3y agoHow is it charging as fast as a charger 3 times more powerful?
- Aissen 3y agoI think only the M2 air (and M1 pro, depending on size) can use fast > 30W charge; it varies by model.
- happyopossum 3y agoNo, even the M1 air can charge at 45w, which is a good bit faster than the 30w adapter they ship with it.
- Retric 3y agoOnly for a relatively small portion of the batteries charging curve. The real advantage is when charging while turned on.
- jwells89 3y agoBeen pretty happy with my GaN Anker brick, which is 150W and smaller than not only the 87W Apple brick, but also the 140W Apple brick and can charge up to 4 things instead of just one. It packs into my laptop bag nicely and makes it unnecessary to bring any other bricks.
- semi-extrinsic 3y agoI always bring just a ~5 year old 65W Dell USB-C charger. It can charge my Pixel from 0 to 100 in 90 minutes, and can take my M1 Pro from 40% to 80% in 60 minutes. It is rugged, and significantly smaller than the Apple power brick that came with the M1 Pro. Don't think I've travelled with more than one charger since phones switched away from micro-USB.
- duskwuff 3y ago> can charge up to 4 things instead of just one Mind that a lot of chargers do weird power allocation things when multiple devices are connected. You probably aren't going to get all 150W to the laptop with four devices connected; depending on the charger and what port you're connected to, you may get much less.
- jwells89 3y agoYeah, it’s almost always at night while I’m asleep that it’s charging multiple things. It also has a port marked to plug a laptop into, which I’d assume it prioritizes over the other ports.
- kemayo 3y agoWorth noting that Anker's 150W charger[1] isn't quite as fast as the 140W Apple charger, because the Anker will only deliver up to 100W to any single port (even if it's the only one being used) whereas the Apple can pump the full 140W out. Of course, outside of fairly niche situations, this isn't going to make a practical difference to your life. :D [1]: https://www.anker.com/products/a2340 https://www.anker.com/products/a2340
- reaperman 3y ago> it charges my M1 MacBook at full speed MacBook Pro models are able to fast charge at 140W (M1 onwards). Even the original M1 MacBook Air can charge at 45W[0]. I don't think it's accurate to say that the 30W Anker charger can charge your "M1 MacBook" at "full speed". 0: https://www.reddit.com/r/macbook/comments/kdpxmm/psa_m1_macbook_air_can_charge_at_45w_tested_with/ https://www.reddit.com/r/macbook/comments/kdpxmm/psa_m1_macb...
- hinkley 3y agoThere are a few video games I can play with my m2 laptop plugged into my 80W monitor and the battery still charges. But it will drain on the 60W monitor if I get the wires switched around.
- lxgr 3y agoOn the other hand, not every MacBook is a MacBook Pro.
- reaperman 3y agoIn my comment I wrote just three sentences. The middle sentence starts off "Even the original M1 MacBook Air..." Then the link I provided is to an investigation on charging speeds of the MacBook Air.
- lxgr 3y agoThat link shows that it's using >45W while (potentially) powered on and doing things other than charging. Apple supplies a 30W charger in the box, so I think it's fair to say that a third-party 30W charger is "full speed" (in the sense of "as good as the stock one", if not full speed in all potential scenarios GP might or might not care about).
- jtmarl1n 3y agoFull Speed to me means as fast as the laptop will allow, not as fast as the one that came in the box.
- traceroute66 3y agoErm, comparing a 30W charger to a 90W charger is a bit like asking why your local UPS driver doesn't do a day's work in a VW Golf. Wattage aside, I'm sure there's more to it than meets the eye. Afterall, Apple are not stupid, smaller charger means less plastic casing and less packaging means simpler manufacturing ... no doubt the Apple ones are the size they are for a reason.
- pletnes 3y agoAlso people just like smaller chargers. Source: have a HP laptop with a brick-size power brick.
- nehal3m 3y agoYou can get a third party GaN charger if your laptop supports charging over USB-C. Most recent Pro- and Elitebooks do.
- lxgr 3y ago> no doubt the Apple ones are the size they are for a reason. That reason might well be "because it's slightly cheaper to build a larger charger and most people wouldn't be willing to pay more for a device that comes with a compact one in the box".
- MrSkelter 3y agoApple are so large and require such scale and control that they have to phase in technology like GaN over time. You can't just order 15M components, built to a custom spec, and get them reliably overnight. Hence Apple have been working to scale supply lines, work with suppliers (and their suppliers) and ensure both quality and other factors (like environmental concerns). Anker can go out of stock and then produce again when things stabilize. Apple can't stop selling Macs for 3 months without a major global crisis.
- CharlesW 3y agoApple is now using GaN for chargers as well. Here's a teardown of Apple's 70W charger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYfoRkzqAII https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYfoRkzqAII
- TMWNN 3y agoLike reaperman said, I don't know about "full speed". But for a year I used a 27W charger with my M1 MacBook Pro. It wasn't fast, but did the job (especially overnight).
- TMWNN 3y ago>I recently got a 30W Anker USB-C charger After getting the M1 I'm typing this on I asked if a MagSafe 1-MagSafe 3 adapter existed. <https://np.reddit.com/r/applehelp/comments/10duooq/i_want_a_magsafe_1tomagsafe_3_or_usbc_adapter/ https://np.reddit.com/r/applehelp/comments/10duooq/i_want_a_...> I felt foolish when I realized that being able to charge from USB-C meant that I could use any old charger and a USB-C cable for the times when I'm away from the stock Apple charger that came with the computer. Bonus: No more dealing with the Apple cable to the MagSafe 1 plug that inevitably lost its sheathing and exposed wires within a year.
- fmajid 3y agoChargerLab does a lot of charger teardowns. Not sure which 30W Anker you were referring to, but here is one: https://www.chargerlab.com/teardown-of-anker-30w-usb-c-gan-511-charger-nano-3/ https://www.chargerlab.com/teardown-of-anker-30w-usb-c-gan-5...
- bhouston 3y agoHas Apple adopted GAN technology in its chargers yet? I’ve moved over to a GAN that is much smaller/lighter than Apples huge blocks.
- minimaxir 3y agoYes, starting with the M2 Airs last year: https://9to5mac.com/2023/06/15/look-inside-apple-new-70w-gan-usb-c-charger-video/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/06/15/look-inside-apple-new-70w-gan... Not as small/cheap as other GAN chargers, though.
- eatbitseveryday 3y agoTitle needs (2015)
- jqpabc123 3y ago1959 Transistor oscillation and rectifying converter power supply system U.S. patent 3,040,271 is filed by Joseph E. Murphy and Francis J. Starzec, from General Motors Company.
- CodeNest 3y ago[dead]
- cwoolfe 3y agoAm I slowly damaging my 2020 M1 MacBook by charging it with a cheap 5V 1A USB-A to USB-C charger at night? What's the actual risk here?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- surfpel 3y agoDo a search for “cheap charger bricked phone”
- klodolph 3y agoThe actual risk is that a cheap charger fails in an unsafe way, and exposes users to unsafe voltages. You need, internally, the right creepage and clearance distances, and you need to use the correct parts in certain places with the correct failure modes (e.g. must fail open or must fail closed). Some cheap chargers are not built to the same safety standards. You won’t notice anything unless they fail in an unsafe way. Unlikely, but possible.
- jxcl 3y ago> You won’t notice anything unless they fail in an unsafe way. Unlikely, but possible. Which, in the worst case, will start a fire that will burn down your house. It's not worth the risk of using cheap chargers; buy from a reputable brand
- lxgr 3y agoThat's not the only worst-case scenario: You could also die from an electric shock. This actually happens every once in a while with cheap chargers.
- harkinian 3y agoYeah, the reputable chargers aren't even expensive now that we're on USB-C. Knockoffs were a lot more tempting during the MagSafe era.
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- amelius 3y agoRead until the end: > The ironic thing about the Apple Macbook charger is that despite its complexity and attention to detail, it's not a reliable charger.
- harkinian 3y agoNot surprising that a complex charger is unreliable. And with iPhones using Lightning, it's even worse.
- samatman 3y agoWhy would Lightning make any difference here? The charge side of the cable is, and has always been, USB, the charger doesn't know the difference.
- harkinian 3y agoThere's something on the Lightning and iPhone side managing charging too. I wasn't talking about the AC->DC rectifier or USB on the brick. In the end, an iPhone will fail to charge pretty often even if the cable isn't frayed, hence the joke that iPhones are always low on battery.
- ryanisnan 3y agoWho are you saying that for? > The Macbook charger is an impressive piece of engineering, even if it's not as reliable as you'd hope. On the other hand, cheap no-name chargers cut corners and often have safety issues, making them risky, both to you and your computer. Given the above quote from the conclusion section, after a lengthy Why you shouldn't get a cheap charger section, my takeaway is that the author still endorses the Macbook charger.
- fckgw 3y agoThe author goes on to state that the problems are with their cables, which for many Apple users is well known. The plastic coating they used that was engineered to be be more supple and "bendable" than other cables was prone to deterioration and breaking down, causing fraying and exposed wires. Apple has since moved on to braided cables since then. The actual bricks themselves have been pretty reliable.
- ProfessorLayton 3y agoAnyone know what's going on with the ground pin on apple chargers? Why add it if they don't include the 3-prong extension cord in any of their Macbooks (in the U.S. at least)?
- harkinian 3y ago[deleted]
- vanchor3 3y agoIt's not necessary to have the ground and there probably isn't enough cost savings to remove it. They've used the same design for years and just disconnecting the ground wouldn't make any sense because then the grounded cable would be pointless.
- astrange 3y agoIt's made that way so that if you travel you can replace the wall side with the local connector. Some of them are always grounded. Though, that's not really more convenient than carrying a power adapter around, so they didn't have to do it that way.
- RandallBrown 3y agoBecause you can get a cable that does have a ground and attach it to the charger by removing the "duck head".
- harkinian 3y agoHuh, my MacBook bought directly from Apple did come with a 3-prong cord, but I've seen plenty that didn't. I specifically remember having one, replacing it with a random 2-prong cord to fit into cramped outlets in high school, and my cautious friend saying "that's jank." Ungrounded connection sometimes causes tingling, a common enough problem that this Amazon 3-prong head even mentions it in the title: https://www.amazon.com/Grounded-Duckhead-Apple-Mac-Adapter/dp/B0B452LS67 https://www.amazon.com/Grounded-Duckhead-Apple-Mac-Adapter/d...
- Aloisius 3y ago
- Player6225 3y agoThis reminds me of the article comparing the computing power of the Apollo 11 Guidance Computer vs USB-C Chargers https://forrestheller.com/Apollo-11-Computer-vs-USB-C-chargers.html https://forrestheller.com/Apollo-11-Computer-vs-USB-C-charge...
- j45 3y agoDelivering cleaner electricity helps devices last much longer. I often wonder why I buy a third party charger for an expensive phone
- astrange 3y agoNot the case as far as I know, but RF interference can mess with touchscreens and other cables or WiFi, and of course it can catch fire and kill you.
- theshrike79 3y agoI used to be That Guy who bought cheap chargers because they were cheap. Then I noticed that my Ginuwine Aapel Charger made in Caulifloweria made my phone's touch screen literally buzz when I touched it. Never used a cheap charger since. Why break a 500€ plus device by saving 20€ on a charger?
- j45 3y agoThis is something those who didn’t spend much time around electronic components might not be aware of
- theshrike79 3y agoAlso: people love to save money in the wrong places. Like a relative of mine who ruined an expensive (500€+) brand name suit jacket by hanging it on a 50 cent wire hanger and now the shoulders have permanent very visible indents. Spending 5€ on a proper hanger would've been enough.
- j45 3y agoI ran computers on a pdu and they lasted forever, the traditional transistors that blew on identical motherboards not using pdu/cleaned power is enough data for me
- 3y ago
- rhplus 3y agoOne unexpected component is a tiny circuit board with a microcontroller... roughly as powerful as the processor inside the original Macintosh That's a great little factoid that I'm going to use at every opportunity.
- fmajid 3y agoEvery USB-C cable rated at more than 60W has to have “e-marker” chips on both ends that are also probably more powerful than an original Mac.
- kuharich 3y agoPast comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10628212 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10628212
- owenversteeg 3y agoAbsolutely classic: A long article about the beautiful engineering and perfection behind the charger, and then - "The ironic thing about the Apple Macbook charger is that despite its complexity and attention to detail, it's not a reliable charger." That's the funny thing about engineering. I have built a lot of things and have used a lot of tools across the entire spectrum from shitty garbage cast out of pot metal (think Harbor Freight, Aliexpress etc) to five-figure Serious Tools for Serious People (cranes, large format cutters, thrusters, advanced measuring equipment etc.) From that experience I can say confidently: It is impossible to know for sure if something is reliable until you actually use it for an extended period of time. I have seen countless absolute hack-job products made of pot metal last decades in a marine environment and I have seen a similarly endless number of beautifully engineered products made of top-tier materials fail catastrophically. Sometimes the shitty product will have two failures that miraculously cancel each other out, or it will rust to shit and keep working, or it will fall to pieces but can be easily epoxied back together to get another ten years out of it. That's the other side of the coin of perfection - repair. With the beautifully-engineered product made with quality materials? Nine times out of ten, fuhgeddaboudit. If you have a serious failure, you're fucked. There is no practical economic way to repair that Mac charger, or your fried fancy oscilloscope, or any advanced motor, or unibody, or virtually anything made of titanium, carbon fiber, et cetera. Give me the cheapest version of your object, however, and I can repair it using only crap from Walmart. Don't get me wrong - give me infinite money and replacements and I will take your beautiful object every time, and in many cases today I have "infinite money" given the price of the product. An Apple Silicon Mac is cheap to replace and it is head-and-shoulders engineered above the rest; it is the pinnacle of all human engineering through history, in my opinion. If mine breaks I will just buy a new one. The problem is that as the world grows richer, this has gone from a luxury attitude to one more people can have each year, and the proportion of beautiful, perfectly engineered objects steadily rises. A hundred years ago no such objects existed. Thirty years ago, they were rare. Today, you can buy anything, from drills to cameras to new unibody cars that are beautiful and flawless and engineered to perfection and completely uneconomical to repair. There are exceptions, wear item parts, manufacturers with repair guides... but they are on the way out. Make no mistake, the moment anything can become a perfect sealed lifetime part, it will. In the distant future, worlds ahead of endless energy and materials, long after the idea of popular repair dies, I only hope it will be reborn as a hobby; bored humans instructing bored robots to choose the inefficient path, to repair and not replace.