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Were these remaining uses harmful? Is this just a PR victory?
by bilsbie 3y ago
Were these remaining uses harmful? Is this just a PR victory?
- kube-system 3y agoBrake linings in particular were a harmful use, because they are worn away into dust during use, and mechanics in particular are exposed to a brake dust as an occupational hazard.
- asdff 3y agoMechanics should be wearing sufficient PPE if they are working with particulate pollution. Take asbestos out of the brake dust but they still do things that generate plenty of particulate, which is only an occupational hazard when coupled with improper ppe.
- azinman2 3y agoHow often do you see mechanics with any kind of PPE?
- toast0 3y agoAlmost all professional mechanics are wearing coveralls. That's PPE. I've certainly seen a lot that wear gloves. That's PPE. Goggles or safety glasses are common but not ubiquitous in the shops I've seen. That's PPE. Ignoring masks that seem responsive to COVID, I haven't seen a lot of masks or respirators outside of shops where they're doing paint work, but I also don't get to see all the shop space and masks are intrusive, so probably if mechanics wear them, it's only when they perceive an accute risk. You don't usually keep your welding mask on all day, unless there's a lot of welding.
- asdff 3y agoHow is this an argument to them not needing to wear PPE? Asbestos isn't the only particulate risk they face. PPE on the other hand would solve the others. You can say you don't see mechanics wearing PPE but thats because its not presently regulated. How many kitchens today lack a handwashing sink? Zero, if they have passed a health inspection.
- kube-system 3y agoHealth inspection failures are very common. Health inspections also only capture a specific a point in time. I have personally eaten at restaurants that initially passed a health inspection, yet failed later for not having a functional handwashing sink. e.g. https://medium.com/@michaelkduchak/predicting-chicago-health-inspection-failures-a9e01788b88e https://medium.com/@michaelkduchak/predicting-chicago-health... Ensuring complete compliance at this level is very difficult.
- azinman2 3y agoIt’s not an argument, but an observation. They deal in all kinds of chemicals and other nastiness, and I’ve never seen one wear PPE. I’ve even talked to mechanics about it and they don’t seem to care.
- asdff 3y agoService your car at a dealer instead of the cheapest shop in town and you will see people gladly using ppe.
- lbotos 3y agoMy younger brother worked at an independent BMW shop for a bit and they wore gloves all day. Anyone actively using airtools also had on ear muffs. Grinding, they'd wear a face shield. Yes, often ppl are dumb but they don't have to be.
- kube-system 3y agoUnfortunately PPE is not always taken seriously by automotive tradespeople (and their employers). It is common to see both professional mechanics and home mechanics doing brake jobs without PPE, in many places. Also, smaller amounts of brake dust are distributed everywhere in the environment where vehicles are operated.
- IntrepidWorm 3y agoSure, but ensuring all mechanics everywhere have access to use PPE, and then enforcing its correct use is way less effective in practice than removing the hazardous material from the workplace entirely. Being exposed to any fine particulate matter over long periods will be detrimental to health (we aren't evolved to breath large amounts of dust), but not every particulate is an acute carcinogen.
- asdff 3y agoWe can play whack a mole getting every source of particulate out of the garage (can we even do that? consider sanding, grinding, painting, etc, not just the brakes are making this), or we can use our existing workplace safety enforcement mechanisms to enforce ppe in this industry like they've enforced ppe in many other industries.
- ziddoap 3y ago>_or_ we can Or, and hear me out because I know this is crazy... we can do both! By trying to get rid of the bad stuff from the workplace and get better at enforcing ppe use.
- robocat 3y ago> we aren't evolved to breath large amounts of dust We are doing that evolution at present! The best way to do evolution is something that kills children before they breed. Second best for evolution is killing adults before they breed. Mostly ineffective is killing adults after they breed: although in theory loss of an adult can affect the population breeding chances downwards for children. Just a reminder that evolution is about breeding children and not so much about death.
- IntrepidWorm 3y agoI'm just spitballing here, but I'd wager that the human toll required to evolve effective resistance to regular and prolonged asbestos exposure is more than most of us would be willing to pay. We already evolved these massive craniums filled with (to date) the most intricate and powerful general computers in the world - it seems like the solution to asbestos exposure is simply engineering a way to avoid it. No evolution necessary.
- Scoundreller 3y agoSounds like my shadetree approach means I’m steps ahead of the pros.
- greenavocado 3y agoIndependent mechanics never wear PPE and they are covered in dust and automotive fluids daily.
- asdff 3y agoSo take out the asbestos and they are still at risk because the fundamental issue is a lack of PPE. You can regulate PPE. Many industries have done it. Shadetree work, sure, people do dumb things like cook hotdogs in shopping carts and sell that too, that will always happen. But for a brick and mortar mechanic they are already going though many regulations (e.g. how they deal with oil). PPE requirements are nothing in comparison to having to deal with things of that nature, or even just general small business requirements.
- kube-system 3y agoHow? Staff an OSHA inspector to stand around in every garage? If Jim at Jim's Auto Service doesn't want to wear a mask, he's not going to wear one. It's not like oil where there's an evidence trail and a big mess if he decides to dump 50 gallons in the back lot. Yes, there's more that could be done in regards to PPE enforcement, but I think that's really an orthogonal issue. Asbestos isn't necessary in brakes, and can be banned regardless of PPE enforcement.
- asdff 3y agoThe same way they manage to conduct health inspections even in the most random hole in the wall greasy spoon locations. You have an expectation for certain things to be there. You have an expectation that procedures are followed. When an incident occurs or an inspection happens where its clear that certain protections were not in place or certain procedures were not followed, you drop the hammer on them. Its not hard and we already have the bureaucratic apparatus to do this. Saying we can't do it for mechanics while we simultaneously do it for other industries like farming, construction, manufacturing, or food service, is just lazy.
- 3y ago
- biscuits1 3y agoRIP, McQueen :pray:
- cjensen 3y agoNormally modern brakes do not contain asbestos. All major car manufacturers have not used it in decades. Why was it still being used at all?
- kube-system 3y agoGlobal OEMs haven't used asbestos for a while. They don't want the liability, and it makes logistical sense for them to use brakes that are legal in all markets. But some low-cost aftermarket replacement brakes imported from countries where it is still legal to manufacture them, have contained asbestos. Asbestos is cheap and functional.
- robocat 3y agoAn acquaintance was trying to argue that Lamborghini brakes contained asbestos. There are places where asbestos is the ideal engineering material but my guess is that brakes is not one of them.
- kube-system 3y agoThe phrase "ideal engineering material" doesn't make any sense. You can't define what is ideal until you define the design goals. If you want to optimize price and fire resistance, and you have no other goals, asbestos is ideal. But yes, VAG quite likely has other goals when designing a Lamborghini.
- robocat 3y agoYou are being uninformatively pedantic, "There are places" is enough context for a throwaway sentence. Analysing every word or phrase is not productive and I think my meaning was clear enough. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html doesn't specifically mention nitpicking: I admit I have the same fault (Edit: rephrased this). Edit 2: perhaps I should have added that I think engineering is the art of making good compromises.
- Sharlin 3y agoIt's crazy that this particular use case wasn't already banned. I mean, the stuff is only dangerous in particulate form – so why on Earth was it permitted to be used for things that by their very nature wear down to particulates during use?
- kube-system 3y agoThere were previous attempts to ban it but they were overturned by courts in the 90s
- anonuser123456 3y agoBecause the dose makes the poison. Low levels of asbestos exposure is statistically unlikely to harm you, and the concentrations from brake dust are relatively low. As long as a brake shop ventilates its work spaces it’s a negligible risk to workers.
- ramblenode 3y ago> Low levels of asbestos exposure is statistically unlikely to harm you This is not correct. One could say that low levels of asbestos have not statistically been shown to cause harm, but that is quite different from statistically showing evidence of no harm. Harm may very well be occuring, but it is below the sensitivity threshold of our instruments to detect it.
- anonuser123456 3y agoWhat ever harm it might be causing, is below the detection threshold, and thus meaningful risk tolerance of everyday life. Living near a freeway for instance is substantially more dangerous to your health than occasional incidental exposure to asbestos. You are breathing asbestos right now. In every breath.
- ramblenode 3y ago> What ever harm it might be causing, is below the detection threshold, and thus meaningful risk tolerance of everyday life. The sensitivity of an instrument to detect harm has no relationship to whether there is some ground truth harm. In many cases, like smoking cigarettes or getting hit on the head repeatedly, harm is incremental and compounding---a single event may not be detectable, but it is almost certainly still harmful.
- chucksta 3y agoTalc, ie baby powder. Its still too common in cosmetics too afaik
- kube-system 3y agoTalc has sometimes been contaminated with asbestos, but it isn't a use of asbestos.
- black6 3y agoOne tainted batch of talcum powder from J&J and now I have to use much less effective corn starch to powder my nether regions.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- op00to 3y agoCheck back in 30 years.
- adrr 3y agoSomeone has to mine it, pack it/assemble it.