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As a daily biker in Paris (and for years), I think it is hard to grasp the changes Paris has seen in the last years. You now even get to see some congestion on
by darkamaul 3y ago
As a daily biker in Paris (and for years), I think it is hard to grasp the changes Paris has seen in the last years.
You now even get to see some congestion on bike lanes (Bd Sebastopol for instance), because they are too many cyclist on an older (and thus too narrow) bike lane.
This change, the new subway lanes, and the reduction of car usage in the city make the city much more enjoyable on a day to day basis, especially for pedestrians as cyclists are less annoying than drivers.
- bsaul 3y agoThe right bank is going to be really overcrowded this spring, for sure. Left bank have wider roads and less bikes, but right bank is insane. It's now up to the point that i rather wait for commute hours to be over before i take my bike to that side.
- Retric 3y ago> especially for pedestrians as cyclists are less annoying than drivers As an American pedestrian I find cyclists far worse on average than drivers. They far more often ignore traffic signs and I have seen multiple collisions including one that looked quite serious, though luckily no fatalities. On a per person basis my personal annoyance scale goes subway riders have least impact, followed by busses, normal pedestrians, cars, joggers, then cyclists at the top. Obviously cars are quite dangerous but they are more predictable. Bikes and joggers seem to spend a lot of time looking at traffic not who they are going to run into. Edit: To be clear I think this would improve as more average people start cycling.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y agoWay less noise though
- Retric 3y agoSure, that's fair.
- vanilla_nut 3y agoI don't think London has made quite the strides in bikeability that Paris has since 2020, but when I visited Hackney last year I was astonished to see more bikes during rush hour than cars. Walking down a road to a coffee shop, I actually had to wait a few seconds to cross at the intersection between two bike highways. Hundreds of people riding bikes to work. And as quiet as the wilderness behind my house in the rural USA. I could hear the wind in the trees, and that was it. Maybe a little drivetrain noise from a poorly maintained bike here or there. I desperately want to live in a city that quiet. Back when I lived in NYC practically every environment was an assault on the ears.
- Mawr 3y agoA treat for you: https://youtu.be/CTV-wwszGw8?t=289 https://youtu.be/CTV-wwszGw8?t=289 :)
- ninininino 3y agoAnd way less particulate pollution. Automobile drivers are actively hurting you everytime you breathe their exhaust fumes, tire wear dust, or brake pad dust. Of course the same can be said for bicycle tires or brakes on a far smaller scale, or probably even pedestrian plastic shoe soles.
- EraYaN 3y agoThat no fatalities bit is the crucial part. And for quality of life the amount of noise is just much better for bikes, which if you live somewhere with roads and bicycle lanes, you'd love for all the cars to go away and just have bicycles. You just need separates infrastructure, as a pedestrian you should almost never have to share a space with bicycles (or cars for that matter). And if you are on a shared space any sane design will make all cars and bicycles wait and slow down. And at that point they can't be annoying cause you don't have to go out of the way for them ever, they can wait (and seethe I suppose).
- Retric 3y ago> as a pedestrian you should almost never have to share a space with bicycles These collisions are mostly at intersections, which aren't avoidable on a flat surface you would need to go 3D. I'm in favor of raised sidewalks for pedestrians, but they are relatively pricey infrastructure. Edit: > That no fatalities bit is the crucial part. Globally I think the rates are quite a bit lower. But in the US it's closer than it might seem based on how many more drivers there are than cyclists. Cyclist only kill about 4 pedestrians per year in the US, but cyclists are also vastly less common especially on a per mile basis. https://www.nationalworld.com/news/politics/pedestrians-killed-dangerous-cyclists-road-deaths-3812845 https://www.nationalworld.com/news/politics/pedestrians-kill... To be clear I don't this says as much about bikes as it does the biased population of people currently using them.
- latortuga 3y agoIf we are comparing against cars though this is a no brainer. Cars and trucks are extremely hard on infrastructure while people and bikes are basically free. Go 3D!
- CalRobert 3y agoCars (drivers, really) are very, very dangerous. They are the leading cause of dead children. They are also one of the reasons kids don't play in the street. I find that far less annoying than cyclists.
- Retric 3y agoDrivers are a lot more common than cyclists in the US. So yes cars kill ~7,000 pedestrians per year vs ~4 (2013-2020) for bikes, but normalize the numbers and bikes are also very dangerous in the US especially on a per mile basis. https://www.nationalworld.com/news/politics/pedestrians-killed-dangerous-cyclists-road-deaths-3812845 https://www.nationalworld.com/news/politics/pedestrians-kill... https://www.statista.com/chart/17194/pedestrian-fatalities-in-the-us-by-year/ https://www.statista.com/chart/17194/pedestrian-fatalities-i...
- CalRobert 3y agoyour first link is for the UK, I think? That seems like a separate issue in a place with very different urban design and habits. What's remarkable is that cars kill thousands of pedestrians _even after we've greatly reduced the frequency of walking_. If the pool were full of sharks then deaths by shark would quickly fall to 0 of course since nobody would swim anymore!
- Retric 3y agoOps, can’t find national numbers for the US. NYC alone had at least 7 pedestrians killed by cyclists from 2011-2019 plus several more recent deaths not counted by this article. That works out to ~10x safer per cyclist and fairly close mile. (As a side note NYC cabs are driving 100k miles per year!) https://nypost.com/2019/08/31/nyc-bicyclists-are-killing-pedestrians-and-the-city-wont-stop-it/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/31/nyc-bicyclists-are-killing-ped...
- jobs_throwaway 3y agoSeems like much of the danger of cycling is due to being near cars though, while the reverse isn't true. Better infrastructure and less car subsidy is likely to make cycling a lot safer, whereas cars already have ~all the infrastructure and subsidy and are still enormously dangerous
- lupusreal 3y agoSeconding this. American cyclists are extremely rude to pedestrians. Whenever somebody brings this up, cyclists dismiss it by pointing out that cars kill more pedestrians than bikes. Well that's certainly true, but I've never had cars yell at me for walking on the sidewalk or over a crosswalk, while cyclists have hurled abuse and (deliberate) near misses at me more times than I can count.
- alistairSH 3y agoAnd a driver assaulted me with his car last week (I was on a bike in a "sharrow" lane). Almost put me into the ditch, and when I didn't fall, he proceeded to brake-check me. I've had food thrown at me by motorists when I'm in dedicated bike lanes. I've been buzzed by trucks and buses while in bike lanes. I see cars regularly use the bike lane outside my house to make aggressive passes of slower auto traffic. Pedestrians have been killed crossing the streets near my house. All by cars, not bicycles. Cars regularly kill animals. And not just squirrels, but raptors and fox and other predators we don't want to lose. And on and on. We all have our anecdotes. The answer is dedicated infrastructure for a range of transportation.
- SamBam 3y ago> but I've never had cars yell at me for walking ... over a crosswalk You don't live in Boston, I see.
- lupusreal 3y agoTrue, I don't. I recognize that driver and pedestrian culture are very different indifferent cities. However a significant number of cyclists seem to hate pedestrians everywhere I've gone. To the other responder, I agree that cars are frequently assholes to cyclists, but how is that relevant to cyclists abusing pedestrians?
- PawgerZ 3y agoYou have. They're just cussing you out in their cars, where you can't hear them.
- jobs_throwaway 3y agoLaughable opinion as a fellow American and New Yorker. A bike crash is an unfortunate, and potentially scary event. A car crash is often life threatening or fatal. You're just not weighing the cost of each type of incident properly
- cycomanic 3y agoYour personal observation does not match statistics. Most statistics show that in the majority of bike car crashes the driver has been at fault. The second link which is for Berlin where cyclist have a very bad reputation it's 77% the drivers fault, in contrast for car pedestrian accidents it was 50/50. I also find these complaints interesting, considering that it's generally considered the norm to drive about 10% above the speed limit, and especially pedestrians are happy to cross traffic lights at red all the time. https://www.quadlockcase.com.au/blogs/news/8-key-facts-about-bicycle-accidents-in-australia https://www.quadlockcase.com.au/blogs/news/8-key-facts-about... https://www.udv.de/resource/blob/79324/c290c92fc2f0712187c0dd3167c6fc2e/39-inneroertliche-unfaelle-mit-fg-und-rf-data.pdf https://www.udv.de/resource/blob/79324/c290c92fc2f0712187c0d... (sorry German)
- draw_down 3y ago[dead]
- Ylpertnodi 3y agoIs Paris still full of dog poop?
- chopsuey5540 3y agoI've also been a daily cyclist for over 10 years in Paris and paradoxically, I feel less safe now when I'm riding on shared infrastructure (that is roads without a separated cycling lane). I attribute it to the fact that people driving, and especially people who HAVE to drive (taxis, deliveries, etc...) are facing insane levels of congestion and are lashing out on cyclists because they blame them for being stuck in traffic for hours every day. Now of course as a cyclist, I applaud all this new infrastructure but I'm wondering if there's a way to appease this growing atmosphere of violence (and I'm not exagerating, I've seen several fights break out between motorists and cyclists). Given the very limited space available in Paris centre, I don't really see an easy way unfortunately... Curious if that's also something you noticed / experienced ?
- noio 3y agoI guess people aren’t always rational, but do those who blame the cyclists not realize how bad things would be if those cyclists were also in cars?
- watwut 3y agoPreviously, some were in cars, but others in public transport.
- yakireev 3y ago> Given the very limited space available in Paris centre, I don't really see an easy way unfortunately... Bicycles take less space than cars, both on road and when parked, don't they? A four-lane bicycle highway is as wide as one-lane car road. If anything, people switching from cars to bicycles should produce more free space for the city, not less. Am I missing something?
- chopsuey5540 3y agoIn Paris, most people who are now biking are people who would have taken public transportation before, so the amount of cars on the roads is roughly the same as before.
- k99x55 3y agoHow far outside central Paris does the cycle infra reach? Are the suburbs still very car-centric and/or hostile bicycles?
- getwiththeprog 3y agoGood question, and I do not know. However, I suspect that looking at the OpenStreetMap of cycling, there are trunk cycling lines, which feed to lower car density backstreets - so certainly one can cycle the suburbs, but without the excellent ammenities of cycle-lanes on every street over 30km/h like in Holland or Belgium.
- k99x55 3y agoHow far outside central Paris does the cycle infra reach? Are the suburbs still very car-centric?
- CalRobert 3y agoWe were trying to decide where to live and visiting Paris for Christmas in 2022 was a sheer joy. We ended up in the Netherlands but biking along Rue de Rivoli, the Seine, etc. were a delight for myself and my daughters (we were in a cargo bike) and we hope to return for many visits. I visited in 2008 and while it was a great city then I definitely wouldn't have been as quick to take kids along for a bike ride.
- jcul 3y agoWere you able to rent a cargo bike in Paris? Or did you somehow bring one with you?
- CalRobert 3y agoWe rented one from here - https://www.hollandbikes.com/117-velo-transport https://www.hollandbikes.com/117-velo-transport One challenge with cargo bikes is transport - They're not allowed on trains (understandably) and carrying one on a car roof is a pretty big undertaking. This guy documented how, though! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UBGT_eE4q0dJZWZrOoBdM80b6WFO_g83NNEB7iRewIc/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UBGT_eE4q0dJZWZrOoBdM80b...
- jcul 3y agoThanks, will keep that in mind, we use a cargo bike at home, but never considered renting one. A great way to explore a city!
- Fradow 3y agoSame here. I'm pleasantly surprised when I try a new itinerary, and now it's mostly bike lanes. Even 5 years ago, it was 50/50 whether there was a proper separated bike lane you could use. I also remember 20 years ago, when a car was a normal way to move around in Paris. It hasn't been the case for several years for me now. Around 2019/2020, something important happened: the critical mass for bicycle infrastructure was crossed, and nearly overnight a lot of people started cycling (no doubt helped by 2019 strikes and 2020 covid lanes). Since then, bicycles are a common sight everywhere.
- lucsky 3y ago> cyclists are less annoying than drivers I had to laugh out loud at this, please define "less annoying". As a daily cyclist in Paris my very own statistics say that about 95% of them (yes, that's NINETY FIVE percent) are either color blind, suicidal or willfully ignore the most basic rule, aka red lights. And yes that include M12 signs which have arrows indicating directions in which running the red light is authorized, that is ignored as well. Breaking these 95% down into categories, the vast majority would be delivery guys - you can easily imagine their "excuse" - and (usually young) idiotic morons on bikeshares (Vélib, Dott, Lime, etc) who therefore do not own the bikes and therefore care even less. I'm especially angry at parents on cargo bikes who run red lights with kids with them, this is not only suicidal, it's borderline criminal. But, you know, they are saving the planet, or something. So I kinda disagree with the "less annoying", cyclists in Paris are the reason why everybody in Paris hates cyclists.
- Affric 3y agoThis is not just Paris but drivers are the same on the inside. The in my experience difference is enforcement. A higher proportion of cyclists believe they will get away with breaking rules and so you see much more of it. Once it’s a norm to sneak around that corner or cross that road then other rule breaking follows. This can only be fixed with enforcement. It can be ameliorated with infrastructure and more permissive rules where appropriate but the only way to make cyclists less annoying is enforcement. EDIT: I say this as someone who very rarely drives and even then only outside of the city.