4 ms·

I think you're confusing intelligence with consciousness

by jajag 3y ago

FrustratedMonky 3y ago
"confusing intelligence with consciousness" Now that LLM's are becoming indistinguishable from humans, and other NN's are even solving proofs in geometry competitions. And there are NN that can fly an F-16 better than humans. All of sudden the goal post moved again. "No, that is just 'intelligence' not 'consciousness'." 12 months ago, nobody was making this distinction. We keep needing to redefine the problem to keep humans on top.
- hax0ron3 3y ago
  The distinction between intelligence and consciousness has been discussed in philosophy of mind for many decades, perhaps centuries. I don't know much much it has been discussed in the context of LLMs, but I'm sure it's not an entirely new phenomenon. The debate is not just a matter of people trying to argue over how capable LLMs are. Many people pursue this topic because it is inherently interesting.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    I think even in philosophy of mind, Intelligence and Consciousness are seen to progress together. They follow the same trend, and at some magic point of enough intelligence, then we call it 'consciousness'. They follow same upward trend. This concept of having high intelligence that is not-conscious, or low-intelligence that is conscious. Seems relatively new.
    - thfuran 3y ago
      Go read Blindsight.
      - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
        Finished it just few weeks ago. And it did a lot to change my mind. I'm still digesting it. Before blindsight, I was firmly of opinion that any system that could be at least human level (lets say indistinguishable), then it would also have to have some internal subjective experience. That the internal subjective experience would be another emergent phenomenon. As NN is processing, it would have the same internal awareness as a human brain. But, after reading blindsight. I am questioning that. So can we get automatons, that have no thought, but could also become greater than humans? With enough complexity in responses, can they adapt just as easily to new situations. I'm not really ready to think that is possible.
- shadowfoxx 3y ago
  I don't think its necessarily to keep humans on top. I don't think my dog can fly an F-16 but I also think my dog is conscious.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    That is why I'm saying the goal post moved. Only couple years ago, people would argue vehemently that dogs are not conscious. Now it seems as a given that they are, lot of people agree on dogs. But are cats? Pigs are 'smarter' than dogs, but nobody cares really about eating them. Are they not conscious. How are we determining dogs are, but pigs aren't? There were long stretches of time when 'intelligence' was a benchmark for 'consciousness'. That was ok as long as humans were way far ahead of every other animal. Suddenly, with AI showing a lot of 'intelligence', now that isn't the measurement we want to use anymore. But if intelligence isn't the measure of consciousness, and dogs are conscious, then why are we ok with eating animals?
    - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
      I feel certain all mammals are conscious. I don’t think humans are doing anything special there. The ethics of eating something that was once conscious is another thing entirely. Carnivores live by eating other animals. I’m sure there are plenty of animals that would love to eat me :-)
    - amenhotep 3y ago
      You are fighting straw men way harder than others are moving goal posts. Who, specifically, argued vehemently in 2022 that dogs aren't conscious and now admits that they are? Who is in any doubt over whether cats and pigs have meaningfully different levels of consciousness than dogs? Are you or are you not simply inventing whole swathes of people who conveniently held the exact positions that you need people to have held in order for your argument to be convincing?
      - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
        That is the problem with goal moving, it is the selective forgetting of what came before, thus making the present time seem new. You think I'm making up swaths of people that used to think animals weren't conscious? That couldn't feel pain? Time Line: ok, I might have date wrong, pre-2000 animals considered not conscious, many to not experience pain. By 2021-2022 there were enough people changing their mind that laws were being changed. It's been slowly shifting over a time range from 2000-2020. Not sure Mid 2000-2020, versus 2022 really invalidates any of my argument. https://academic.oup.com/icb/article/40/6/847/187565 https://academic.oup.com/icb/article/40/6/847/187565 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/mila.12498 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/mila.12498 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9704368/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9704368/

I think you're confusing intelligence with consciousness

by jajag 3y ago

I think you're confusing intelligence with consciousness

"confusing intelligence with consciousness" Now that LLM's are becoming indistinguishable from humans, and other NN's are even solving proofs in geometry competitions. And there are NN that can fly an F-16 better than humans. All of sudden the goal post moved again. "No, that is just 'intelligence' not 'consciousness'." 12 months ago, nobody was making this distinction. We keep needing to redefine the problem to keep humans on top.

hax0ron3 3y ago
The distinction between intelligence and consciousness has been discussed in philosophy of mind for many decades, perhaps centuries. I don't know much much it has been discussed in the context of LLMs, but I'm sure it's not an entirely new phenomenon. The debate is not just a matter of people trying to argue over how capable LLMs are. Many people pursue this topic because it is inherently interesting.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  I think even in philosophy of mind, Intelligence and Consciousness are seen to progress together. They follow the same trend, and at some magic point of enough intelligence, then we call it 'consciousness'. They follow same upward trend. This concept of having high intelligence that is not-conscious, or low-intelligence that is conscious. Seems relatively new.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    Go read Blindsight.
    - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
      Finished it just few weeks ago. And it did a lot to change my mind. I'm still digesting it. Before blindsight, I was firmly of opinion that any system that could be at least human level (lets say indistinguishable), then it would also have to have some internal subjective experience. That the internal subjective experience would be another emergent phenomenon. As NN is processing, it would have the same internal awareness as a human brain. But, after reading blindsight. I am questioning that. So can we get automatons, that have no thought, but could also become greater than humans? With enough complexity in responses, can they adapt just as easily to new situations. I'm not really ready to think that is possible.
shadowfoxx 3y ago
I don't think its necessarily to keep humans on top. I don't think my dog can fly an F-16 but I also think my dog is conscious.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  That is why I'm saying the goal post moved. Only couple years ago, people would argue vehemently that dogs are not conscious. Now it seems as a given that they are, lot of people agree on dogs. But are cats? Pigs are 'smarter' than dogs, but nobody cares really about eating them. Are they not conscious. How are we determining dogs are, but pigs aren't? There were long stretches of time when 'intelligence' was a benchmark for 'consciousness'. That was ok as long as humans were way far ahead of every other animal. Suddenly, with AI showing a lot of 'intelligence', now that isn't the measurement we want to use anymore. But if intelligence isn't the measure of consciousness, and dogs are conscious, then why are we ok with eating animals?
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    I feel certain all mammals are conscious. I don’t think humans are doing anything special there. The ethics of eating something that was once conscious is another thing entirely. Carnivores live by eating other animals. I’m sure there are plenty of animals that would love to eat me :-)
  - amenhotep 3y ago
    You are fighting straw men way harder than others are moving goal posts. Who, specifically, argued vehemently in 2022 that dogs aren't conscious and now admits that they are? Who is in any doubt over whether cats and pigs have meaningfully different levels of consciousness than dogs? Are you or are you not simply inventing whole swathes of people who conveniently held the exact positions that you need people to have held in order for your argument to be convincing?
    - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
      That is the problem with goal moving, it is the selective forgetting of what came before, thus making the present time seem new. You think I'm making up swaths of people that used to think animals weren't conscious? That couldn't feel pain? Time Line: ok, I might have date wrong, pre-2000 animals considered not conscious, many to not experience pain. By 2021-2022 there were enough people changing their mind that laws were being changed. It's been slowly shifting over a time range from 2000-2020. Not sure Mid 2000-2020, versus 2022 really invalidates any of my argument. https://academic.oup.com/icb/article/40/6/847/187565 https://academic.oup.com/icb/article/40/6/847/187565 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/mila.12498 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/mila.12498 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9704368/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9704368/