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Some nice fresh ideas in here. Love the Big Brother, Big Bouncer and Big Butler distinctions. Some more mundane reality from the streets... actual people who

Some nice fresh ideas in here. Love the Big Brother, Big Bouncer and Big Butler distinctions. Some more mundane reality from the streets... actual people who work in actual shops and people who actually buy stuff are on this week's Cybershow [0] saying just how much everyone hate this cashless and robotic rubbish. Everyone with a IQ above double figures can see it's one power outage away from food riots (resilience is my personal bugbear - and I sincerely think society is screwing itself with cashless ideology and that we ought to treat it as seriously as soil erosion, climate change and other threats to food and energy continuity of operation.) [0] https://cybershow.uk/ https://cybershow.uk/

jameshart 3y ago
> one power outage away from food riots Tell us more about this scenario. You’re positing a situation where due to an inability to accept cashless payments, supermarkets refuse to sell food to people for an extended period, leading to mass unrest? In the UK? The UK power grid is remarkably resilient. To the extent that a half hour long power outage in London over 20 years ago is considered notable enough to deserve a Wikipedia article [1] An extended power outage affecting access to payment capabilities across a large region would be an emergency but it wouldn’t collapse civilization. There’s little reason to suspect people would not find some way to transact while power is restored. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_London_blackout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_London_blackout
- twic 3y ago
  My local supermarket, in London, had an internet outage yesterday, and couldn't take card payments. Their cash machine was out of action too. They had staff outside telling everyone as they came in; some carried on in, many went elsewhere. Most people don't carry enough to cash to do meaningful grocery shopping these days.
  - jameshart 3y ago
    Did a food riot start?
    - Brian_K_White 3y ago
      Did this question have a point? It did not.
      - jameshart 3y ago
        To draw attention to the motte and Bailey nature of this argument. The Bailey: ‘cashless payment is fragile and a single outage would lead to riots in the streets’ The Motte: ‘internet and power outages happen and are annoying’ Evidence for the easily defended motte position does not defend the outrageous Bailey.
        Brian_K_White 3y ago
        As suspected, no point. (nothing was validated or invalidated)
        jameshart 3y ago
        An instance of one outage not causing a food riot is pretty clear evidence against the proposition that digital payment systems are one outage away from food riots.
    - tester457 3y ago
      Thankfully not. But imagine if power was out for several days or weeks, which will happen in the future as natural disasters get worse.
    - twic 3y ago
      No, but there was a reasonably priced French red wine riot.
- Animats 3y ago
  It happened in Puerto Rico after the 2017 hurricane.[1] 11 months without power. Fortunately the climate there is good. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/us/puerto-rico-shortages-cash.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/us/puerto-rico-shortages-...
  - jameshart 3y ago
    The impact to cashless payment infrastructure ranked how high on the list of problems there?
    - dinkumthinkum 3y ago
      My understanding is that that situation happened in the past and not in a future in which Puerto Rico has an actual “cashless society,” is that not true?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  How about you tell me more about how ""The UK power grid is remarkably resilient"? Because those are not the facts I am looking at. We just made it through a winter where the UK government put a 30% probability on rolling brownouts due to gas instability and put additional blackout emergency plans into place for the first time since the 1970s "Winter of Discontent".
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    Something having a 30% chance of failing for a short period over 50+ years seems very reliable to me.
  - u32480932048 3y ago
    How many rolling brownouts did you experience?
    - nonrandomstring 3y ago
      None whatsoever. I've also been riding my motorcycle without a helmet for 50 years, and never had a problem with that yet.
Infinity315 3y ago
> Everyone with a IQ above double figures can see it's one power outage away from food riots. In this scenario where people are desperate to do a food riot, a power outage has occurred for multiple consecutive days if not at least a week. In which case, something truly apocalyptic is happening, in which case I doubt people would be civilized enough to bargain for food for useless cash or shavings of gold, in that scenario resources are the only useful 'cash'. In this scenario, it's likely it'd be some sort of national emergency and I'd imagine most people have enough food in their pantries to tide them over until the government provides food or restores power. Modern power infrastructure is incredibly resilient and outages are usually localized to regions and power is restored within hours. I understand the idea of using cash for privacy reasons or keeping few hundred just in case, but keeping with cash just in case a food riot happens is wholly unconvincing.
- jjav 3y ago
  > Modern power infrastructure is incredibly resilient and outages are usually localized to regions and power is restored within hours. This comes across as a very sheltered view I have to say. Modern systems are very fragile, as they get ever more complicated combined with less and less appetite by utilities to spend on redundancy and disaster preparedness (cuts into profits). > In this scenario where people are desperate to do a food riot, a power outage has occurred for multiple consecutive days if not at least a week. In 2017 hurricane Maria left Puerto Rico without power for many weeks (in many areas) and multiple months (in some parts) (or even a few years in most remote areas). Society goes on, but you'll be well served to have cash. While that was a major hurricane, electricity outages of like a week are quite common with smaller storms.
- throwup238 3y ago
  > In which case, something truly apocalyptic is happening, Like some bad weather? I'd argue that accurately describes swathes of Texas just a few years ago. Some areas lost power for days.
  - Infinity315 3y ago
    Yes, but remember in this scenario people are desperate enough to riot for food. In this scenario, this is not just bad weather it's bad enough that it has become nearly logistically impossible for a developed nation to transfer enough resources to the people living in this region. In this scenario, why would I trade the food which I need now for cash? I don't care about a potentially large payoff in the future when my immediate needs are not met.
krisoft 3y ago
> Everyone with a IQ above double figures can see it's one power outage away from food riots It is super classy to pre-emptively call everyone stupid who disagrees with you.
dinkumthinkum 3y ago
I agree with you to some extent on som points. I would say, as far as “food riots,” we have a more immediate threat to food commerce in that in the US and to some extent Canada that we are moving toward the legalization of crime and this is already having an effect in cities like Chicago, in which they are now pathetically talking about building Soviet style food markets due to such policies.
- tptacek 3y ago
  We're doing what now? Where do I go to witness these "Soviet-style" markets? Presumably they're cited somewhere in the 2-3 blocks between giant competing Pete's and Mariano's grocery store pairs. Bonus points if the Soviet-style market is on Grand on the near-west side so I can go to Bari for a sandwich.
  - dinkumthinkum 3y ago
    Ok, https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world/chicago-proposes-opening-city-run-grocery-store-but-the-concept-is-not-new-socialism-food-deserts-brandon-johnson-usda-argiculture-nutrition-grocery-stores-supermarket-nonprofit-crime-retail-gap https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world/chicago-proposes-ope...
    - tptacek 3y ago
      OK? Food deserts have nothing to do with "the legalization of crime" and have been a phenomenon for 3+ decades in Chicago. They're the product of redlining, not of criminal justice policies. Food deserts occur in the low-income west and south sides of the city, which aren't lucrative to site large retail in. Your argument is really flimsy, and counts on your reader not knowing how Chicago works (or, for that matter, what a food desert is).
      - kasey_junk 3y ago
        Also worth noting Brandon Johnson’s administration has a habit of floating trial balloons of things that will never actually happen. The number of serious policy proposals they’ve been able to accomplish is effectively zero.

jameshart 3y ago

> one power outage away from food riots Tell us more about this scenario. You’re positing a situation where due to an inability to accept cashless payments, supermarkets refuse to sell food to people for an extended period, leading to mass unrest? In the UK? The UK power grid is remarkably resilient. To the extent that a half hour long power outage in London over 20 years ago is considered notable enough to deserve a Wikipedia article [1] An extended power outage affecting access to payment capabilities across a large region would be an emergency but it wouldn’t collapse civilization. There’s little reason to suspect people would not find some way to transact while power is restored. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_London_blackout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_London_blackout

twic 3y ago
My local supermarket, in London, had an internet outage yesterday, and couldn't take card payments. Their cash machine was out of action too. They had staff outside telling everyone as they came in; some carried on in, many went elsewhere. Most people don't carry enough to cash to do meaningful grocery shopping these days.
- jameshart 3y ago
  Did a food riot start?
  - Brian_K_White 3y ago
    Did this question have a point? It did not.
    - jameshart 3y ago
      To draw attention to the motte and Bailey nature of this argument. The Bailey: ‘cashless payment is fragile and a single outage would lead to riots in the streets’ The Motte: ‘internet and power outages happen and are annoying’ Evidence for the easily defended motte position does not defend the outrageous Bailey.
      - Brian_K_White 3y ago
        As suspected, no point. (nothing was validated or invalidated)
        jameshart 3y ago
        An instance of one outage not causing a food riot is pretty clear evidence against the proposition that digital payment systems are one outage away from food riots.
  - tester457 3y ago
    Thankfully not. But imagine if power was out for several days or weeks, which will happen in the future as natural disasters get worse.
  - twic 3y ago
    No, but there was a reasonably priced French red wine riot.
Animats 3y ago
It happened in Puerto Rico after the 2017 hurricane.[1] 11 months without power. Fortunately the climate there is good. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/us/puerto-rico-shortages-cash.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/us/puerto-rico-shortages-...
- jameshart 3y ago
  The impact to cashless payment infrastructure ranked how high on the list of problems there?
  - dinkumthinkum 3y ago
    My understanding is that that situation happened in the past and not in a future in which Puerto Rico has an actual “cashless society,” is that not true?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nonrandomstring 3y ago
How about you tell me more about how ""The UK power grid is remarkably resilient"? Because those are not the facts I am looking at. We just made it through a winter where the UK government put a 30% probability on rolling brownouts due to gas instability and put additional blackout emergency plans into place for the first time since the 1970s "Winter of Discontent".
- Symbiote 3y ago
  Something having a 30% chance of failing for a short period over 50+ years seems very reliable to me.
- u32480932048 3y ago
  How many rolling brownouts did you experience?
  - nonrandomstring 3y ago
    None whatsoever. I've also been riding my motorcycle without a helmet for 50 years, and never had a problem with that yet.

Infinity315 3y ago

> Everyone with a IQ above double figures can see it's one power outage away from food riots. In this scenario where people are desperate to do a food riot, a power outage has occurred for multiple consecutive days if not at least a week. In which case, something truly apocalyptic is happening, in which case I doubt people would be civilized enough to bargain for food for useless cash or shavings of gold, in that scenario resources are the only useful 'cash'. In this scenario, it's likely it'd be some sort of national emergency and I'd imagine most people have enough food in their pantries to tide them over until the government provides food or restores power. Modern power infrastructure is incredibly resilient and outages are usually localized to regions and power is restored within hours. I understand the idea of using cash for privacy reasons or keeping few hundred just in case, but keeping with cash just in case a food riot happens is wholly unconvincing.

jjav 3y ago
> Modern power infrastructure is incredibly resilient and outages are usually localized to regions and power is restored within hours. This comes across as a very sheltered view I have to say. Modern systems are very fragile, as they get ever more complicated combined with less and less appetite by utilities to spend on redundancy and disaster preparedness (cuts into profits). > In this scenario where people are desperate to do a food riot, a power outage has occurred for multiple consecutive days if not at least a week. In 2017 hurricane Maria left Puerto Rico without power for many weeks (in many areas) and multiple months (in some parts) (or even a few years in most remote areas). Society goes on, but you'll be well served to have cash. While that was a major hurricane, electricity outages of like a week are quite common with smaller storms.
throwup238 3y ago
> In which case, something truly apocalyptic is happening, Like some bad weather? I'd argue that accurately describes swathes of Texas just a few years ago. Some areas lost power for days.
- Infinity315 3y ago
  Yes, but remember in this scenario people are desperate enough to riot for food. In this scenario, this is not just bad weather it's bad enough that it has become nearly logistically impossible for a developed nation to transfer enough resources to the people living in this region. In this scenario, why would I trade the food which I need now for cash? I don't care about a potentially large payoff in the future when my immediate needs are not met.

krisoft 3y ago

> Everyone with a IQ above double figures can see it's one power outage away from food riots It is super classy to pre-emptively call everyone stupid who disagrees with you.

dinkumthinkum 3y ago

I agree with you to some extent on som points. I would say, as far as “food riots,” we have a more immediate threat to food commerce in that in the US and to some extent Canada that we are moving toward the legalization of crime and this is already having an effect in cities like Chicago, in which they are now pathetically talking about building Soviet style food markets due to such policies.

tptacek 3y ago
We're doing what now? Where do I go to witness these "Soviet-style" markets? Presumably they're cited somewhere in the 2-3 blocks between giant competing Pete's and Mariano's grocery store pairs. Bonus points if the Soviet-style market is on Grand on the near-west side so I can go to Bari for a sandwich.
- dinkumthinkum 3y ago
  Ok, https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world/chicago-proposes-opening-city-run-grocery-store-but-the-concept-is-not-new-socialism-food-deserts-brandon-johnson-usda-argiculture-nutrition-grocery-stores-supermarket-nonprofit-crime-retail-gap https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world/chicago-proposes-ope...
  - tptacek 3y ago
    OK? Food deserts have nothing to do with "the legalization of crime" and have been a phenomenon for 3+ decades in Chicago. They're the product of redlining, not of criminal justice policies. Food deserts occur in the low-income west and south sides of the city, which aren't lucrative to site large retail in. Your argument is really flimsy, and counts on your reader not knowing how Chicago works (or, for that matter, what a food desert is).
    - kasey_junk 3y ago
      Also worth noting Brandon Johnson’s administration has a habit of floating trial balloons of things that will never actually happen. The number of serious policy proposals they’ve been able to accomplish is effectively zero.