5 ms·

Fuck. I just last year integrated this in a project of mine. Thinking: "Yeah, Google fucked me over here before when I used their, but it's Mozilla, it will be

by onli 3y ago

Fuck. I just last year integrated this in a project of mine. Thinking: "Yeah, Google fucked me over here before when I used their, but it's Mozilla, it will be fine." It is not okay to stop providing a service like this. Not if you are Mozilla, with that mission and money, not something that is so deeply entrenched. Though, reading it more calmly, I can see how them being hit by a patent troll can make their investment in this project untenable. There is a comment about the Graphene Foundation maybe providing an alternative. That would be great - but having https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4To-F6W1NT0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4To-F6W1NT0 in mind, with that maintainer still active the project and foundation is a complete no-go. The organic maps comment is the one to follow instead.

wkat4242 3y ago
GrapheneOS doesn't use this though on Android. microG does but they hate microG with a passion, for some reason. They have their sandboxed Google play as an alternative.
Yoric 3y ago
Well, money can be used to power a service that (almost) nobody uses, or to power services that Mozilla hopes will be more useful. I, for one, had assumed that this service had been retired ages ago.
- onli 3y ago
  Imho that location service is an important piece of infrastructure for web apps that need IP geolocation, especially for FOSS software given that there is no alternative, and useful for Android without Google services. Both things Mozilla should support.
  - bananapub 3y ago
    > an important piece of infrastructure for web apps that need IP geolocation er, isn't it entirely for physical location based on wifi and mobile network towers?
    - onli 3y ago
      My script is calling `https://location.services.mozilla.com/v1/geolocate?key=geoclue https://location.services.mozilla.com/v1/geolocate?key=geocl...`. That's the service linked in the announcement. I assumed they would should down everything.
- dingensundso 3y ago
  A lot of people running degoogled androids depend on the location service: https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/issues/2237 https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/issues/2237
- pona-a 3y ago
  "Nobody uses"... Do you understand what you just said? Raw GPS is universally unusable, requiring up to half an hour of waving your phone under clear sky, hoping it a) will actually work; b) will not loose signal; c) will not drain the battery before you reach your destination. The only way to get reasonable estimation of location? Location services. Guess who are the only providers? About 5 or something companies, all with expensive licenses and weird terms of use. And here comes Mozilla, providing this same expensive exclusive service for free as a convenient API. Just send some WiFi SSIDs and signal strength, cell towers, and Bluetooth devices, and without even having to turn on the actual GPS, you get a faster, more accurate estimate of geolocation, down to a few meters. This service is vital to mobile Linux or even deGoogled Android or non-Chrome browsers. In its time Canonical had to plead with Here maps for years to give their devices proper GPS. To say a project unique in its entire domain on which hinges the existence of entire ecosystems is less important than a yet VPN or email alias service seems downright silly. Besides, it's not like Mozilla did it on their own volition. A patent troll had come to destroy their competitor on shaky legal footing, knowing they won't fight back...
  - traceroute66 3y ago
    > Raw GPS is universally unusable, requiring up to half an hour of waving your phone under clear sky, Sigh. The increasing amount of unsubstantiated FUD finding its way on to HN recently is depressing. Two glaringly obvious points to make at your nonsense: 1. What you describe is ancient history. It applied to old previous-generation devices with single-frequency chipsets (L1 GPS signals). However, effectively 100% of devices released within the last 3–5 years (and more in the case of certain manufacturers !) (a) have L1,L2,L5 GPS chipsets and (b) have multi-frequency GPS chipsets whch work not only with the "original" GPS but also Galileo, QZSS and others. 2. Even if we accept your argument, which we should not, then the rapid adoption of Apple's FindMy network (and the equivalent for Google) surely cannot have escaped your attention ? These serve to increase accuracy. The reality is there is fast becoming no need for a third-party service such as the one Mozilla provided, because there is now first-class support for sufficiently robust high-accuracy positioning.
    - 3y ago
- tehbeard 3y ago
  > ...power services that Mozilla hopes will be more useful. Hmm, more likely to end up as another C-level bonus/salary bump.
  - thayne 3y ago
    Or another project that nobody wants that gets shut down after a couple years.
deprecative 3y ago
Mozilla is funded by Google. Mozilla doesn't seem to have much of a clue what it ought to be doing, either. I use Firefox, but I wouldn't trust anything else to last unfortunately.
- berkes 3y ago
  > Mozilla is funded by Google You aren't saying it, but it is implied or can easily misread as such. But Google is not directly funding Mozilla. Mozilla gets its funds from many places, and one of them is Google; paying for being the default search engine. It's by far the largest amount. But not the only, nor a direct funding.
  - eganist 3y ago
    > But not the only, nor a direct funding. Being paid directly for a service by a company (Google paying for the privilege of being the default) is to be directly funded by that company. You're right that it's not the only source of revenue, but it's absolutely a direct source of funding.
    - malfist 3y ago
      If I go buy a box of crackers at Walmart, am I funding Walmart? Is Walmart now beholden to me?
      - 1over137 3y ago
        Does your cracker purchase represent the majority of Walmart's revenue? Not the same thing.
      - smashed 3y ago
        No but if Walmart distributes 81% of the production of that particular cracker brand, it could suddenly find itself in a huge crisis if Walmart decided to cease distributing it and fill the shelves with great value crackers.
      - 3y ago
lxgr 3y ago
Can you summarize the concerns addressed in that video, or is there a text source?
- onli 3y ago
  Easy to write a summary that would risk being banned for ;) But that basically says it all, the user hostile and insulting behavior and his vendetta against projects he hallucinates at somehow being hostile to him - completely delusional - makes the project something that never should be on anyone's hardware, especially not something security relevant. That guy would have root. But best to watch the video, there are a plethora of sources. Last time I wrote something like that here someone else from GrapheneOS accused me of being unfair, since he is out by now - now I see the old maintainer writing in the name of the foundation and that he still commits to the project.
  - codethief 3y ago
    > since he is out by now - now I see the old maintainer writing in the name of the foundation and that he still commits to the project. What do you mean? At least to me knowledge, Daniel Micay has been the maintainer of GrapheneOS throughout (from day 1 until now).
    - onli 3y ago
      No, that changed, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36089104 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36089104
      - aesh2Xa1 3y ago
        How would GrapheneOS target a specific person? You said "that guy would have root." To be frank, I do not think that's true. He is definitely not "out by now." He said he would step down, but I am under the impression that gesture (and the original Twitter post) was retracted. He's still listed as a director with the Canadian Business Registry record on GrapheneOS Foundation: https://ised-isde.canada.ca/cc/lgcy/fdrlCrpDtls.html?p=0&corpId=14857577 https://ised-isde.canada.ca/cc/lgcy/fdrlCrpDtls.html?p=0&cor... The GrapheneOS project, and its sub-projects, are a net positive. You can dislike any individual person or aspect of the project and still take from its success. "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." That said, you and I might just have differing views on the project and its management. I feel the project itself should be assessed/characterized on its security-focused initiatives first and foremost.
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by onli 3y ago

wkat4242 3y ago

GrapheneOS doesn't use this though on Android. microG does but they hate microG with a passion, for some reason. They have their sandboxed Google play as an alternative.

Yoric 3y ago

Well, money can be used to power a service that (almost) nobody uses, or to power services that Mozilla hopes will be more useful. I, for one, had assumed that this service had been retired ages ago.

onli 3y ago
Imho that location service is an important piece of infrastructure for web apps that need IP geolocation, especially for FOSS software given that there is no alternative, and useful for Android without Google services. Both things Mozilla should support.
- bananapub 3y ago
  > an important piece of infrastructure for web apps that need IP geolocation er, isn't it entirely for physical location based on wifi and mobile network towers?
  - onli 3y ago
    My script is calling `https://location.services.mozilla.com/v1/geolocate?key=geoclue https://location.services.mozilla.com/v1/geolocate?key=geocl...`. That's the service linked in the announcement. I assumed they would should down everything.
dingensundso 3y ago
A lot of people running degoogled androids depend on the location service: https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/issues/2237 https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/issues/2237
pona-a 3y ago
"Nobody uses"... Do you understand what you just said? Raw GPS is universally unusable, requiring up to half an hour of waving your phone under clear sky, hoping it a) will actually work; b) will not loose signal; c) will not drain the battery before you reach your destination. The only way to get reasonable estimation of location? Location services. Guess who are the only providers? About 5 or something companies, all with expensive licenses and weird terms of use. And here comes Mozilla, providing this same expensive exclusive service for free as a convenient API. Just send some WiFi SSIDs and signal strength, cell towers, and Bluetooth devices, and without even having to turn on the actual GPS, you get a faster, more accurate estimate of geolocation, down to a few meters. This service is vital to mobile Linux or even deGoogled Android or non-Chrome browsers. In its time Canonical had to plead with Here maps for years to give their devices proper GPS. To say a project unique in its entire domain on which hinges the existence of entire ecosystems is less important than a yet VPN or email alias service seems downright silly. Besides, it's not like Mozilla did it on their own volition. A patent troll had come to destroy their competitor on shaky legal footing, knowing they won't fight back...
- traceroute66 3y ago
  > Raw GPS is universally unusable, requiring up to half an hour of waving your phone under clear sky, Sigh. The increasing amount of unsubstantiated FUD finding its way on to HN recently is depressing. Two glaringly obvious points to make at your nonsense: 1. What you describe is ancient history. It applied to old previous-generation devices with single-frequency chipsets (L1 GPS signals). However, effectively 100% of devices released within the last 3–5 years (and more in the case of certain manufacturers !) (a) have L1,L2,L5 GPS chipsets and (b) have multi-frequency GPS chipsets whch work not only with the "original" GPS but also Galileo, QZSS and others. 2. Even if we accept your argument, which we should not, then the rapid adoption of Apple's FindMy network (and the equivalent for Google) surely cannot have escaped your attention ? These serve to increase accuracy. The reality is there is fast becoming no need for a third-party service such as the one Mozilla provided, because there is now first-class support for sufficiently robust high-accuracy positioning.
  - 3y ago
tehbeard 3y ago
> ...power services that Mozilla hopes will be more useful. Hmm, more likely to end up as another C-level bonus/salary bump.
- thayne 3y ago
  Or another project that nobody wants that gets shut down after a couple years.

deprecative 3y ago

Mozilla is funded by Google. Mozilla doesn't seem to have much of a clue what it ought to be doing, either. I use Firefox, but I wouldn't trust anything else to last unfortunately.

berkes 3y ago
> Mozilla is funded by Google You aren't saying it, but it is implied or can easily misread as such. But Google is not directly funding Mozilla. Mozilla gets its funds from many places, and one of them is Google; paying for being the default search engine. It's by far the largest amount. But not the only, nor a direct funding.
- eganist 3y ago
  > But not the only, nor a direct funding. Being paid directly for a service by a company (Google paying for the privilege of being the default) is to be directly funded by that company. You're right that it's not the only source of revenue, but it's absolutely a direct source of funding.
  - malfist 3y ago
    If I go buy a box of crackers at Walmart, am I funding Walmart? Is Walmart now beholden to me?
    - 1over137 3y ago
      Does your cracker purchase represent the majority of Walmart's revenue? Not the same thing.
    - smashed 3y ago
      No but if Walmart distributes 81% of the production of that particular cracker brand, it could suddenly find itself in a huge crisis if Walmart decided to cease distributing it and fill the shelves with great value crackers.
    - 3y ago

lxgr 3y ago

Can you summarize the concerns addressed in that video, or is there a text source?

onli 3y ago
Easy to write a summary that would risk being banned for ;) But that basically says it all, the user hostile and insulting behavior and his vendetta against projects he hallucinates at somehow being hostile to him - completely delusional - makes the project something that never should be on anyone's hardware, especially not something security relevant. That guy would have root. But best to watch the video, there are a plethora of sources. Last time I wrote something like that here someone else from GrapheneOS accused me of being unfair, since he is out by now - now I see the old maintainer writing in the name of the foundation and that he still commits to the project.
- codethief 3y ago
  > since he is out by now - now I see the old maintainer writing in the name of the foundation and that he still commits to the project. What do you mean? At least to me knowledge, Daniel Micay has been the maintainer of GrapheneOS throughout (from day 1 until now).
  - onli 3y ago
    No, that changed, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36089104 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36089104
    - aesh2Xa1 3y ago
      How would GrapheneOS target a specific person? You said "that guy would have root." To be frank, I do not think that's true. He is definitely not "out by now." He said he would step down, but I am under the impression that gesture (and the original Twitter post) was retracted. He's still listed as a director with the Canadian Business Registry record on GrapheneOS Foundation: https://ised-isde.canada.ca/cc/lgcy/fdrlCrpDtls.html?p=0&corpId=14857577 https://ised-isde.canada.ca/cc/lgcy/fdrlCrpDtls.html?p=0&cor... The GrapheneOS project, and its sub-projects, are a net positive. You can dislike any individual person or aspect of the project and still take from its success. "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." That said, you and I might just have differing views on the project and its management. I feel the project itself should be assessed/characterized on its security-focused initiatives first and foremost.

deleted 3y ago

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deleted 3y ago

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