15 ms·

Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fight with publishers

269 points by notRobot 3y ago

Anamon 3y ago
See also the lawsuit against the Internet Archive, as some other comment already pointed out. What this also primarily is, is a direct attack by the publishers on the first sale doctrine, a crucial balancing part of copyright law. Time-limited and self-destructing book copies, as for any (digital) media, is nothing short of a cultural atrocity that only philistines could have come up with. The word "scam" is more than apt for this latest effort by the publishing industry to milk the maximum amount of profit out of something without putting in any additional work or providing any additional value in return. Asking money for doing literally nothing -- I don't think that calling that a scam goes too far. This from an industry who, like many others, keeps claiming that they are acting in the name of protecting the creatives, while having a long and flowery history of fleecing and bleeding dry those very artists.
stop50 3y ago
In Germany the price is capped. Everyone has to sell a new book at the price that was set by the author. This also applies to libraries, for the usage libraries have to pay 3-4 cent per lending to an organisation that distributes the money to the authors(the organisation depends on tge type of the print)
- rightbyte 3y ago
  That sounds like a price fix, not a cap?
  - gandalfian 3y ago
    Yeah he means fixed. It's a common way to stop bookshops being squeezed out. They abolished it in the UK in the 90s which combined with internet sellers emerging led to the odd effect that book prices didn't really rise for 20 years.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      In the US, new books were mostly cover price until into maybe the 90s? There were some exceptions. It wasn't uncommon for larger stores to offer some bestsellers at something like a 15% discount. It was sort of an innovation when a large independent bookstore opened in Cambridge MA and sold most or maybe all their books at a 15% discount. There was also a larger set of fair trade laws in the US because manufacturers didn't want their products to be discounted which, among other things, probably got their products on the shelves of small stores that perhaps couldn't otherwise afford to carry them.
- StefanBatory 3y ago
  They want to introduce that too in Poland and it's an awful idea. If you set a price that's obligatory to sell book for, it won't become cheaper, it will go up. And I just won't buy it. I see exactly zero reasons why I should care for local bookshops. I'm not made out of money and I won't buy stuff from them only to keep them alive.
  - StefanBatory 3y ago
    To clarify myself - for example, when new book releases, it has suggested price of 60 zł. Online I can get it for 40. In physical shop for 60; if it's there. Because most likely it won't be. And I can't order, none of the bookshops nearby do this. Why should I be happy at unified price if all it means is that I will pay 1/3 more?
bluish29 3y ago
The argument in publishing industry (about papers and textbooks) is that if you cannot afford to buy/rent at the current market value then you still can use a public/university library to get it. This became actually more of a cliché than an argument over time. Now with a significant portion of textbooks (and books in general) become mainly E-books, the industry limited library capabilities and required pay per lend and restrict number of simultaneous lends. For papers, many universities canceled access contracts because it became too costly. Not to mention that smaller universities couldn't afford most of these subscriptions anyway. Publishing industry really needs more regulation. Free market hardly work there.
- beezlebroxxxxxx 3y ago
  If I buy an ebook, can I give it "used" to a library? I would like to, but I don't even know if that's a thing. (Let's assume for the sake of the question that the book I buy is also DRM free.)
  - CuriousCosmic 3y ago
    For textbooks? No. And nowadays a lot of them also expire after a year since by then the student likely no longer needs it. It's a really gross industry
    - ghaff 3y ago
      I would question that you don't need a university textbook after a year. I can't say I remember specific examples but I'm pretty sure I referred to earlier textbooks for later engineering classes.
      - bluish29 3y ago
        I still refer to my undergrad textbooks in maths and physics till this day. There are usually the basics and you need to review them a lot if you are working in STEM fields.
  - 3y ago
pastage 3y ago
When ebooks hit off the public libraries in Stockholm and perhaps all of Sweden starting paying (costs of running all physical libraries)/(number of books borrowed) with some obvious discounts to those values. Not sure how this has changed in the last two decades. "Libraries need to renew their leased e-material." that is impossible this is not how things should work. Libraires should have every book not being bound by publishers. It is clearly the case that you need new negotiators and laws for public libraries. We should have an international law that allow libraries to lend photocopies of books, like archive.org does, or just a digital copy. There has been a rise in really good digital interactive books were there is no standard way to make an (pirate) archive, so change is comming even if such a law passes.
derbOac 3y ago
I get so frustrated by these games. Publishers should lose copyright to every work they do not offer in perpetuity with every purchase in every format, and there should be no postsale restrictions on any item beyond what is implied by copyright.
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > Publishers should lose copyright to every work they do not offer in perpetuity with every purchase in every format If such a law comes, the publisher will set the price to, say, 1 billion USD.
  - dangus 3y ago
    Such a law could easily forbid price gouging.
  - LegibleCrimson 3y ago
    Yeah, I keep seeing suggestions like this and I just don't get it. Like the only way people can fathom something being available is if it's for sale. We really need shorter copyright terms more than anything else.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - derbOac 3y ago
    But they don't do that with physical books.
    - aleph_minus_one 3y ago
      I do know examples where publishers did stop printing new editions (i.e. stopped publishing) some books.
everdrive 3y ago
Because e-books are digital, publishers will use the the technology for increased telemetry, control, and ultimately to extract more resources. Much like music or movies, there's not inherent reason why e-books would need to work this way, but the publishers can't help themselves. For the average consumer, the solution seems obvious. Pay for physical books, and pirate e-books.
Kaibeezy 3y ago
I have consulted in this sector, specifically academic publishing and textbooks. My sense is that publishers in the education market are biding their time while old pedagogies wane. Every new paper book soon becomes a used book, worth zero or even negative revenue, whereas ebooks are sold de novo to every student at nearly full price with much lower fixed costs (print, distribute, stock, return). But publishers are wary of being seen as interfering with academic freedom by pushing to ebooks. There are a couple of use cases where students overwhelmingly prefer paper. Cost savings with used books is obvious, but also, for example, if a prof -might- allow a paper book on an exam but -wouldn’t- allow laptop ebook access, most students will -never- take the risk of being disadvantaged, even if it’s only in rare cases. I’d have to think about corresponding forces in the general publishing and public libraries realm, which I’ll assume is more complex but roughly analogous. Publishers are waiting until there are a few successful targeted solutions and generational overturn, then paper will disappear in a blink and they will get a fat profit boost. Tech to enable this should be a nice little unicorn.
- armchairhacker 3y ago
  The value of ebooks isn't the content, but that they have specific homework problems or codes which are required to access online assignments. Particularly the latter, giving each student a different code, because otherwise an entire class can share one ebook. Otherwise, most ebooks have pirated online PDFs, and even without those, all the information is readily available in many places online.
mixedmath 3y ago
This is an interesting problem. I love my library. And I use both physical and digital books. On the one hand, it's probably true that more people can read a digital book. Ob the other hand, I have read fewer than 20 pages of a bunch of ebooks - enough to see if I might like them. Do these count as checkouts? Am I a very expensive library user? (And I also am happy to have several ebooks that I'll read sometime, casually renewing them until I get to them).
- xrd 3y ago
  This is a very important point. Libraries should fight to legislate analytics on exact usage when checking out an ebook, especially if they are paying for a set number of usages.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
codazoda 3y ago
I’ve written and self published a few small books, including Publish Your eBook. Maybe we should create an author collaborative where we make our books available to libraries either free or at a more reasonable price. There must be a handful of authors who would be willing to do this and who own enough rights to do so. It sounds like even a few books would help libraries bolster their collections. 1. Publish Your eBook by Joel Dare https://amzn.to/49WjVrn https://amzn.to/49WjVrn
- jonawesomegreen 3y ago
  I work at a non-profit organization and part of our mission is exactly this. You can find more details here: https://indieauthorproject.com/ https://indieauthorproject.com/ Another part of our mission is providing libraries an open source ebook and audiobook reader called Palace. Our project is on GitHub here https://github.com/thepalaceproject https://github.com/thepalaceproject.
perihelions 3y ago
[flagged]
- harimau777 3y ago
  At least in the US, libraries are a major resource for homeless people, children without access to computers, etc. Libraries also serve a social/enrichment function in many communities.
- Folcon 3y ago
  I think you're seriously undervaluing what libraries as an institution provide both as one of the few public spaces where people can just be, without having to spend money to justify their presence, alongside being a resource to access knowledge, with people trained in the art of suggesting good or at the very least not terrible resources to start people's inquiry into subjects they aren't familiar with, as well as being a unified voice acting in the public interest, to retain and expand those same offerings.
- mckn1ght 3y ago
  You are absolutely right about the searchability aspect. I want a PDF copy of every book I read now (I still prefer to read actually the deadtree copies) so I can find something again later. But until we can demonstrate that digital libraries can preserve works themselves and access to them for hundreds/thousands of years, I would hesitate to suggest that libraries should be left to die on the vine.
- edude03 3y ago
  I agree with the premise that ebooks can be a better experience than paper books, I don't agree that pirate libraries can replace, or even serve a similar purpose to physical libraries though.
  - perihelions 3y ago
    Ah, I'm not comparing e-books to paper books; rather I'm comparing free libraries of e-books against DRM-locked lending libraries of e-books (the ecosystem that the OP article is about).
mark_l_watson 3y ago
I hope some fair deal is worked out. I am wealthy and splurging on all the audio books (yeah for Libro.fm) and eBooks (yeah for Kobo) that I want, but I still experiment consuming the fine content my local library network has. Great books are available to easily consume with Libby and interesting movies and video content are available with Kanopy. Libraries can also be a nexus for social events and on site education. Very well worth the tax money. In a world of dehumanizing digital tech, libraries are a human experience.
747-8F 3y ago
This isn't different from the media industry's overall evolution. Publishers aren't different from Audio media. Authors have mkt reach through digital channels, unlike constraints of bookshelf logistics. Why aren't they directly publishing their material? Margins are higher, without publisher fees.
- dragandj 3y ago
  Many authors do, but how likely it is that the potential reader finds their books among the millions of books pushed through channels saturated by well-oiled publisher-controlled marketing machine?
beej71 3y ago
> "They do have a funding problem, but the answer is not to take it out of the pockets of authors and destroy the rights of creators and pass unconstitutional legislation,” said Shelley Husband, senior vice president of government affairs at the Association of American Publishers I'm guessing Husband's solution is to raise taxes to pay themselves for more expensive books. The AAP is also suing Internet Archive, incidentally.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  The Internet Archive is participating in the legal process to get to a conclusion that ebooks are the same as physical books, otherwise the concept of libraries is over (except for those who can pirate and the data stores that exist across the internet, Anna’s Archive, Zlib/libgen, etc).
  - ghaff 3y ago
    The concept of libraries, especially those that aren't large research libraries, has already shifted quite a bit. I almost never go down to my small town library to take out a book or read a magazine. Maybe a DVD now and then that catches my eye. Sometimes I discount museum passes. I could go to talks. Their e-book service isn't that compelling. Other people probably have different behaviors. People I know with younger children in particular use local libraries for children's books quite a lot. But libraries as a place you checkout books is almost certainly already on the decline. For me, the pirate sites aren't even competition. I only have limited time. I read a lot on the Internet. If there's some new book I want to read, I'll probably just buy it for my Kindle. (Obviously many people are much more price-sensitive but I wonder how many of them are using libraries today.)
    - namekyd 3y ago
      My wife and I are voracious readers, it would be a very expensive habit to have off we were buying everything for kindle. We are members of 2 local libraries with listings on overdrive/libby and rent the majority of our ebooks there. I suppose it depends on your library’s offering and how many books you go through
rabite 3y ago
Librarians should just begin directly teaching people how to use Z-Library and Annas-Archive.
- ta988 3y ago
  That would not work long term because those same libraries are where those books and papers came from in the first place.
habosa 3y ago
This sucks but was inevitable. Libraries are such a weird and wonderful thing. Even though books are widely sold, there’s a place where you can go and read them for free instead. And it’s not some weird loophole, it’s a basic unit of our society and an assumed part of every community. Unfortunately this is America. Nothing can beat out profit motives forever. The libraries really never stood a chance.
- armchairhacker 3y ago
  Libraries for the purpose of getting information simply don't make sense in the digital age. The internet is far bigger and more accessible than any library, and you can find information on nearly any topic in exclusively ad-free, public domain sites like Wikipedia, the Gutenburg project, and arXiv. Libraries now exist more as a place for community: somewhere quiet anyone can freely hang out, access resources like 3D printers (or for the very poor, public fountains/restrooms and the internet), and attend workshops. Some libraries like the Boston Public Library are still nice and active even today (https://www.bpl.org/ https://www.bpl.org/). But unfortunately as you mentioned, people today really don't fund community, and there are a lot of degrading and closing libraries.
  - zinodaur 3y ago
    The internet is better for factoids - for learning something, a book is a lot better, if you can get your hands on one. E.g. for a niche topic there's maybe a 5 page wikipedia article, a thousand useless seo fodder blogs, and a bunch of academic papers on the topic. At the library, I can get a 300 page comprehensive text written by an expert whose motive is to actually teach me the topic.
    - vundercind 3y ago
      Same experience here. The Web’s excellent for a handful of (important!) topics but kiddie-pool shallow for many others. You quickly run out of Web resources and have to hit interlibrary loan or books stores to keep going. It’s telling that probably the single most-valuable store of knowledge on the web is… a book piracy website. And even that’s missing tons of stuff.
vzaliva 3y ago
What's worrying about the article is the fact that electronic editions of ebooks expire, meaning libraries can't keep them indefinitely. It's reminiscent of the Hollywood blockbuster model, where there's only a short window to watch a new movie in theaters. So, while libraries might stock new releases, what happens to the older ones? Could this trend be pushing readers towards newer publications?
- thfuran 3y ago
  I've found a fair number of series at my library where they only have e-books of, say, #2 and #4, and I've always assumed it's because the rest expired and haven't been re-purchased.
nofollow 3y ago
related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Title/site context: The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries (karawynn.substack.com) 2023-08-04 <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643> <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643>
  - leotravis10 3y ago
    The post has moved platforms since it was published, correct link is now here: https://buttondown.email/ninelives/archive/the-coming-enshittification-of-public-libraries/ https://buttondown.email/ninelives/archive/the-coming-enshit...
    - dredmorbius 3y ago
      Thanks. And I'd meant to post the (apparently stale) article link above, rather than the HN discussion thread a second time. (I know why comment edits are limited in time scope ... but it's annoying. And yes, there is a workaround, ask mods how ;-)
FloatArtifact 3y ago
Digital media costs library much more money than physical media. In the US in the state of Wisconsin has a statewide digital library last time I was a resident there. That means all libraries share the digital library across the state. My experience was a incredible variety of content at the cost of somewhat longer wait times. The same cannot be said of Minnesota. When inquiring why Minnesota does not have the same system when chatting with our local library it came down to publishers were no longer willing to have such an agreements. The library would love to have such a system in Minnesota but the publishers are against it. I wish there was a way we could bridge readers with their authors. As a side note I don't quite understand the downside even with the Wisconsin system. For my understanding it was contracted per book for a length of time and also a fee per read. https://www.wplc.info/wisconsins-digital-library-faq https://www.wplc.info/wisconsins-digital-library-faq
briandear 3y ago
How about eliminating libraries and provide vouchers for Kindle Unlimited for the poor? Work with Amazon to create some kind of Amazon library using Kindle as the platform. People with money don’t need public libraries — you can buy pretty much anything easily. People spend $18 on a McDonalds meal, $9.99 for an ebook is nothing. Big city libraries are mostly homeless shelters at this point. I’m not going to a public library to use the World Book Encyclopedia like I did 35 years ago. Pretty sure most people aren’t. I’m not going to check out some music CDs — I have Apple Music. Unless it’s some kind of rare collections library for academic research, the average library doesn’t need to exist. It’s a vestige like Blockbuster Video. It would be cool though if people could buy library access for university digital libraries. Being able to access journal articles is pretty awesome.
- leotravis10 3y ago
  Very awful take, Brian. Don't you realize that libraries are under attack by mostly all fronts (governments, politicians, publishers, copyright cartel, right wing zealots just to name a few) plus they're on the front lines of the country's problems because our government are too corrupt to do anything to help the marginalized and underprivileged. https://www.axios.com/2024/02/18/libraries-ebooks-hoopla-libby-book-ban-censorship https://www.axios.com/2024/02/18/libraries-ebooks-hoopla-lib... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39474151 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39474151 Also read here: https://buttondown.email/ninelives/archive/the-coming-enshittification-of-public-libraries/ https://buttondown.email/ninelives/archive/the-coming-enshit... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- cubecul 3y ago
  I am on the commission overseeing a major public library system. I strongly disagree with your interpretation of what libraries do. First, the real estate presence of the library is extremely important. Children's storytime is one of the strongest drivers of foot traffic. Some of the buildings act as designated cooling centers during heat waves. They are community centers and gathering spaces for local organizations. Also, just because you can spend $10 on an ebook does not mean others would choose to do the same! That's important money to many people. Otherwise, here are some other things I've seen libraries do that I think your comment underestimates: - supplies reading materials to jailed inmates - helps new residents navigate city services - manages the city archives - provides wifi access for the 10%+ of a big city that does not have wifi at home - gives free books to build book collections at home - loans tools and other "maker" equipment Not all libraries are funded well enough to do the above, and the specific definition of a library in 2024 is very hard to nail down - basically converges on a community center. All I'm saying is that libraries are making concerted efforts to break out of the traditional definition ("gatekeeper of information") - you should check out your local library to see all that they do!
WalterBright 3y ago
> one hardcover copy of Cook’s latest novel costs the library $18, it costs $55 to lease a digital copy I buy the used paperback used for $3. > a price that can't be haggled with publishers. Of course they can haggle. They just don't know how to.
- samtho 3y ago
  This is a poorly informed assessment. Nearly every single library system is subject to “take it or leave it” pricing and terms by publishers. The libraries need the publishers to purchase materials from, the publisher likely wishes the library was gone so they can think they are selling more product now.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    The library can buy the stuff used and the publishers make nothing off of such sales. I buy nearly all my books used.
    - samtho 3y ago
      Libraries cannot buy used because they need the asset prepared for circulation. This includes a protective cover, barcoding, etc. They usually have a vendor do this preparation, and the assets (books, usually) are often not the same as what you would find in a store, they can be different sizes to fit in Automatic Materials Handling Systems, have more robust binding, etc.
      - rahimnathwani 3y ago
        The books are often the same as what you would find in a store. It's possible to put a protective cover on a used book. The books at my local library come in many different sizes, including the size of a paperback novel.
        WalterBright 3y ago
wolverine876 3y ago
The answer may be to change copyright law to allow book owners to freely shift mediums (I forget the term for it, but converting a paper book to PDF by scanning, or vice versa by printing), and to restrict the ability to lease everything - you buy it, you own it (a debate older than this issue, and there's term for that too). Then I could donate my book to the library, they could scan it (or buy a scanned copy), and as long as they restricted checkouts based on the number of copies, they'd be fine. The Internet Archive seems to do something similar, though it seems to be an issue in the courts. I wonder if libraries could donate their books to IA and direct patrons there for electronic versions.
- margalabargala 3y ago
  > The Internet Archive seems to do something similar, though it seems to be an issue in the courts. There was a brief period of time at the beginning of COVID when the Internet Archive decided to do away with the "one digital copy per purchase" restriction, essentially arguing that since libraries across the country were closed, this was justified. [0] The courts disagreed. [0] https://blog.archive.org/2020/03/24/announcing-a-national-emergency-library-to-provide-digitized-books-to-students-and-the-public/ https://blog.archive.org/2020/03/24/announcing-a-national-em...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

269 points by notRobot 3y ago

See also the lawsuit against the Internet Archive, as some other comment already pointed out. What this also primarily is, is a direct attack by the publishers on the first sale doctrine, a crucial balancing part of copyright law. Time-limited and self-destructing book copies, as for any (digital) media, is nothing short of a cultural atrocity that only philistines could have come up with. The word "scam" is more than apt for this latest effort by the publishing industry to milk the maximum amount of profit out of something without putting in any additional work or providing any additional value in return. Asking money for doing literally nothing -- I don't think that calling that a scam goes too far. This from an industry who, like many others, keeps claiming that they are acting in the name of protecting the creatives, while having a long and flowery history of fleecing and bleeding dry those very artists.

stop50 3y ago

In Germany the price is capped. Everyone has to sell a new book at the price that was set by the author. This also applies to libraries, for the usage libraries have to pay 3-4 cent per lending to an organisation that distributes the money to the authors(the organisation depends on tge type of the print)

rightbyte 3y ago
That sounds like a price fix, not a cap?
- gandalfian 3y ago
  Yeah he means fixed. It's a common way to stop bookshops being squeezed out. They abolished it in the UK in the 90s which combined with internet sellers emerging led to the odd effect that book prices didn't really rise for 20 years.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    In the US, new books were mostly cover price until into maybe the 90s? There were some exceptions. It wasn't uncommon for larger stores to offer some bestsellers at something like a 15% discount. It was sort of an innovation when a large independent bookstore opened in Cambridge MA and sold most or maybe all their books at a 15% discount. There was also a larger set of fair trade laws in the US because manufacturers didn't want their products to be discounted which, among other things, probably got their products on the shelves of small stores that perhaps couldn't otherwise afford to carry them.
StefanBatory 3y ago
They want to introduce that too in Poland and it's an awful idea. If you set a price that's obligatory to sell book for, it won't become cheaper, it will go up. And I just won't buy it. I see exactly zero reasons why I should care for local bookshops. I'm not made out of money and I won't buy stuff from them only to keep them alive.
- StefanBatory 3y ago
  To clarify myself - for example, when new book releases, it has suggested price of 60 zł. Online I can get it for 40. In physical shop for 60; if it's there. Because most likely it won't be. And I can't order, none of the bookshops nearby do this. Why should I be happy at unified price if all it means is that I will pay 1/3 more?

bluish29 3y ago

The argument in publishing industry (about papers and textbooks) is that if you cannot afford to buy/rent at the current market value then you still can use a public/university library to get it. This became actually more of a cliché than an argument over time. Now with a significant portion of textbooks (and books in general) become mainly E-books, the industry limited library capabilities and required pay per lend and restrict number of simultaneous lends. For papers, many universities canceled access contracts because it became too costly. Not to mention that smaller universities couldn't afford most of these subscriptions anyway. Publishing industry really needs more regulation. Free market hardly work there.

beezlebroxxxxxx 3y ago
If I buy an ebook, can I give it "used" to a library? I would like to, but I don't even know if that's a thing. (Let's assume for the sake of the question that the book I buy is also DRM free.)
- CuriousCosmic 3y ago
  For textbooks? No. And nowadays a lot of them also expire after a year since by then the student likely no longer needs it. It's a really gross industry
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I would question that you don't need a university textbook after a year. I can't say I remember specific examples but I'm pretty sure I referred to earlier textbooks for later engineering classes.
    - bluish29 3y ago
      I still refer to my undergrad textbooks in maths and physics till this day. There are usually the basics and you need to review them a lot if you are working in STEM fields.
- 3y ago

pastage 3y ago

When ebooks hit off the public libraries in Stockholm and perhaps all of Sweden starting paying (costs of running all physical libraries)/(number of books borrowed) with some obvious discounts to those values. Not sure how this has changed in the last two decades. "Libraries need to renew their leased e-material." that is impossible this is not how things should work. Libraires should have every book not being bound by publishers. It is clearly the case that you need new negotiators and laws for public libraries. We should have an international law that allow libraries to lend photocopies of books, like archive.org does, or just a digital copy. There has been a rise in really good digital interactive books were there is no standard way to make an (pirate) archive, so change is comming even if such a law passes.

derbOac 3y ago

I get so frustrated by these games. Publishers should lose copyright to every work they do not offer in perpetuity with every purchase in every format, and there should be no postsale restrictions on any item beyond what is implied by copyright.

aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> Publishers should lose copyright to every work they do not offer in perpetuity with every purchase in every format If such a law comes, the publisher will set the price to, say, 1 billion USD.
- dangus 3y ago
  Such a law could easily forbid price gouging.
- LegibleCrimson 3y ago
  Yeah, I keep seeing suggestions like this and I just don't get it. Like the only way people can fathom something being available is if it's for sale. We really need shorter copyright terms more than anything else.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- derbOac 3y ago
  But they don't do that with physical books.
  - aleph_minus_one 3y ago
    I do know examples where publishers did stop printing new editions (i.e. stopped publishing) some books.

everdrive 3y ago

Because e-books are digital, publishers will use the the technology for increased telemetry, control, and ultimately to extract more resources. Much like music or movies, there's not inherent reason why e-books would need to work this way, but the publishers can't help themselves. For the average consumer, the solution seems obvious. Pay for physical books, and pirate e-books.

Kaibeezy 3y ago

I have consulted in this sector, specifically academic publishing and textbooks. My sense is that publishers in the education market are biding their time while old pedagogies wane. Every new paper book soon becomes a used book, worth zero or even negative revenue, whereas ebooks are sold de novo to every student at nearly full price with much lower fixed costs (print, distribute, stock, return). But publishers are wary of being seen as interfering with academic freedom by pushing to ebooks. There are a couple of use cases where students overwhelmingly prefer paper. Cost savings with used books is obvious, but also, for example, if a prof -might- allow a paper book on an exam but -wouldn’t- allow laptop ebook access, most students will -never- take the risk of being disadvantaged, even if it’s only in rare cases. I’d have to think about corresponding forces in the general publishing and public libraries realm, which I’ll assume is more complex but roughly analogous. Publishers are waiting until there are a few successful targeted solutions and generational overturn, then paper will disappear in a blink and they will get a fat profit boost. Tech to enable this should be a nice little unicorn.

armchairhacker 3y ago
The value of ebooks isn't the content, but that they have specific homework problems or codes which are required to access online assignments. Particularly the latter, giving each student a different code, because otherwise an entire class can share one ebook. Otherwise, most ebooks have pirated online PDFs, and even without those, all the information is readily available in many places online.

mixedmath 3y ago

This is an interesting problem. I love my library. And I use both physical and digital books. On the one hand, it's probably true that more people can read a digital book. Ob the other hand, I have read fewer than 20 pages of a bunch of ebooks - enough to see if I might like them. Do these count as checkouts? Am I a very expensive library user? (And I also am happy to have several ebooks that I'll read sometime, casually renewing them until I get to them).

xrd 3y ago
This is a very important point. Libraries should fight to legislate analytics on exact usage when checking out an ebook, especially if they are paying for a set number of usages.
- deleted 3y ago
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codazoda 3y ago

I’ve written and self published a few small books, including Publish Your eBook. Maybe we should create an author collaborative where we make our books available to libraries either free or at a more reasonable price. There must be a handful of authors who would be willing to do this and who own enough rights to do so. It sounds like even a few books would help libraries bolster their collections. 1. Publish Your eBook by Joel Dare https://amzn.to/49WjVrn https://amzn.to/49WjVrn

jonawesomegreen 3y ago
I work at a non-profit organization and part of our mission is exactly this. You can find more details here: https://indieauthorproject.com/ https://indieauthorproject.com/ Another part of our mission is providing libraries an open source ebook and audiobook reader called Palace. Our project is on GitHub here https://github.com/thepalaceproject https://github.com/thepalaceproject.

perihelions 3y ago

[flagged]

harimau777 3y ago
At least in the US, libraries are a major resource for homeless people, children without access to computers, etc. Libraries also serve a social/enrichment function in many communities.
Folcon 3y ago
I think you're seriously undervaluing what libraries as an institution provide both as one of the few public spaces where people can just be, without having to spend money to justify their presence, alongside being a resource to access knowledge, with people trained in the art of suggesting good or at the very least not terrible resources to start people's inquiry into subjects they aren't familiar with, as well as being a unified voice acting in the public interest, to retain and expand those same offerings.
mckn1ght 3y ago
You are absolutely right about the searchability aspect. I want a PDF copy of every book I read now (I still prefer to read actually the deadtree copies) so I can find something again later. But until we can demonstrate that digital libraries can preserve works themselves and access to them for hundreds/thousands of years, I would hesitate to suggest that libraries should be left to die on the vine.
edude03 3y ago
I agree with the premise that ebooks can be a better experience than paper books, I don't agree that pirate libraries can replace, or even serve a similar purpose to physical libraries though.
- perihelions 3y ago
  Ah, I'm not comparing e-books to paper books; rather I'm comparing free libraries of e-books against DRM-locked lending libraries of e-books (the ecosystem that the OP article is about).

mark_l_watson 3y ago

I hope some fair deal is worked out. I am wealthy and splurging on all the audio books (yeah for Libro.fm) and eBooks (yeah for Kobo) that I want, but I still experiment consuming the fine content my local library network has. Great books are available to easily consume with Libby and interesting movies and video content are available with Kanopy. Libraries can also be a nexus for social events and on site education. Very well worth the tax money. In a world of dehumanizing digital tech, libraries are a human experience.

747-8F 3y ago

This isn't different from the media industry's overall evolution. Publishers aren't different from Audio media. Authors have mkt reach through digital channels, unlike constraints of bookshelf logistics. Why aren't they directly publishing their material? Margins are higher, without publisher fees.

dragandj 3y ago
Many authors do, but how likely it is that the potential reader finds their books among the millions of books pushed through channels saturated by well-oiled publisher-controlled marketing machine?

beej71 3y ago

> "They do have a funding problem, but the answer is not to take it out of the pockets of authors and destroy the rights of creators and pass unconstitutional legislation,” said Shelley Husband, senior vice president of government affairs at the Association of American Publishers I'm guessing Husband's solution is to raise taxes to pay themselves for more expensive books. The AAP is also suing Internet Archive, incidentally.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
The Internet Archive is participating in the legal process to get to a conclusion that ebooks are the same as physical books, otherwise the concept of libraries is over (except for those who can pirate and the data stores that exist across the internet, Anna’s Archive, Zlib/libgen, etc).
- ghaff 3y ago
  The concept of libraries, especially those that aren't large research libraries, has already shifted quite a bit. I almost never go down to my small town library to take out a book or read a magazine. Maybe a DVD now and then that catches my eye. Sometimes I discount museum passes. I could go to talks. Their e-book service isn't that compelling. Other people probably have different behaviors. People I know with younger children in particular use local libraries for children's books quite a lot. But libraries as a place you checkout books is almost certainly already on the decline. For me, the pirate sites aren't even competition. I only have limited time. I read a lot on the Internet. If there's some new book I want to read, I'll probably just buy it for my Kindle. (Obviously many people are much more price-sensitive but I wonder how many of them are using libraries today.)
  - namekyd 3y ago
    My wife and I are voracious readers, it would be a very expensive habit to have off we were buying everything for kindle. We are members of 2 local libraries with listings on overdrive/libby and rent the majority of our ebooks there. I suppose it depends on your library’s offering and how many books you go through

rabite 3y ago

Librarians should just begin directly teaching people how to use Z-Library and Annas-Archive.

ta988 3y ago
That would not work long term because those same libraries are where those books and papers came from in the first place.

habosa 3y ago

This sucks but was inevitable. Libraries are such a weird and wonderful thing. Even though books are widely sold, there’s a place where you can go and read them for free instead. And it’s not some weird loophole, it’s a basic unit of our society and an assumed part of every community. Unfortunately this is America. Nothing can beat out profit motives forever. The libraries really never stood a chance.

armchairhacker 3y ago
Libraries for the purpose of getting information simply don't make sense in the digital age. The internet is far bigger and more accessible than any library, and you can find information on nearly any topic in exclusively ad-free, public domain sites like Wikipedia, the Gutenburg project, and arXiv. Libraries now exist more as a place for community: somewhere quiet anyone can freely hang out, access resources like 3D printers (or for the very poor, public fountains/restrooms and the internet), and attend workshops. Some libraries like the Boston Public Library are still nice and active even today (https://www.bpl.org/ https://www.bpl.org/). But unfortunately as you mentioned, people today really don't fund community, and there are a lot of degrading and closing libraries.
- zinodaur 3y ago
  The internet is better for factoids - for learning something, a book is a lot better, if you can get your hands on one. E.g. for a niche topic there's maybe a 5 page wikipedia article, a thousand useless seo fodder blogs, and a bunch of academic papers on the topic. At the library, I can get a 300 page comprehensive text written by an expert whose motive is to actually teach me the topic.
  - vundercind 3y ago
    Same experience here. The Web’s excellent for a handful of (important!) topics but kiddie-pool shallow for many others. You quickly run out of Web resources and have to hit interlibrary loan or books stores to keep going. It’s telling that probably the single most-valuable store of knowledge on the web is… a book piracy website. And even that’s missing tons of stuff.

vzaliva 3y ago

What's worrying about the article is the fact that electronic editions of ebooks expire, meaning libraries can't keep them indefinitely. It's reminiscent of the Hollywood blockbuster model, where there's only a short window to watch a new movie in theaters. So, while libraries might stock new releases, what happens to the older ones? Could this trend be pushing readers towards newer publications?

thfuran 3y ago
I've found a fair number of series at my library where they only have e-books of, say, #2 and #4, and I've always assumed it's because the rest expired and haven't been re-purchased.

nofollow 3y ago

related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643

dredmorbius 3y ago
Title/site context: The Coming Enshittification of Public Libraries (karawynn.substack.com) 2023-08-04 <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643> <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643>
- leotravis10 3y ago
  The post has moved platforms since it was published, correct link is now here: https://buttondown.email/ninelives/archive/the-coming-enshittification-of-public-libraries/ https://buttondown.email/ninelives/archive/the-coming-enshit...
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Thanks. And I'd meant to post the (apparently stale) article link above, rather than the HN discussion thread a second time. (I know why comment edits are limited in time scope ... but it's annoying. And yes, there is a workaround, ask mods how ;-)

FloatArtifact 3y ago

Digital media costs library much more money than physical media. In the US in the state of Wisconsin has a statewide digital library last time I was a resident there. That means all libraries share the digital library across the state. My experience was a incredible variety of content at the cost of somewhat longer wait times. The same cannot be said of Minnesota. When inquiring why Minnesota does not have the same system when chatting with our local library it came down to publishers were no longer willing to have such an agreements. The library would love to have such a system in Minnesota but the publishers are against it. I wish there was a way we could bridge readers with their authors. As a side note I don't quite understand the downside even with the Wisconsin system. For my understanding it was contracted per book for a length of time and also a fee per read. https://www.wplc.info/wisconsins-digital-library-faq https://www.wplc.info/wisconsins-digital-library-faq

briandear 3y ago

How about eliminating libraries and provide vouchers for Kindle Unlimited for the poor? Work with Amazon to create some kind of Amazon library using Kindle as the platform. People with money don’t need public libraries — you can buy pretty much anything easily. People spend $18 on a McDonalds meal, $9.99 for an ebook is nothing. Big city libraries are mostly homeless shelters at this point. I’m not going to a public library to use the World Book Encyclopedia like I did 35 years ago. Pretty sure most people aren’t. I’m not going to check out some music CDs — I have Apple Music. Unless it’s some kind of rare collections library for academic research, the average library doesn’t need to exist. It’s a vestige like Blockbuster Video. It would be cool though if people could buy library access for university digital libraries. Being able to access journal articles is pretty awesome.

leotravis10 3y ago
Very awful take, Brian. Don't you realize that libraries are under attack by mostly all fronts (governments, politicians, publishers, copyright cartel, right wing zealots just to name a few) plus they're on the front lines of the country's problems because our government are too corrupt to do anything to help the marginalized and underprivileged. https://www.axios.com/2024/02/18/libraries-ebooks-hoopla-libby-book-ban-censorship https://www.axios.com/2024/02/18/libraries-ebooks-hoopla-lib... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39474151 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39474151 Also read here: https://buttondown.email/ninelives/archive/the-coming-enshittification-of-public-libraries/ https://buttondown.email/ninelives/archive/the-coming-enshit... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36998643
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cubecul 3y ago
I am on the commission overseeing a major public library system. I strongly disagree with your interpretation of what libraries do. First, the real estate presence of the library is extremely important. Children's storytime is one of the strongest drivers of foot traffic. Some of the buildings act as designated cooling centers during heat waves. They are community centers and gathering spaces for local organizations. Also, just because you can spend $10 on an ebook does not mean others would choose to do the same! That's important money to many people. Otherwise, here are some other things I've seen libraries do that I think your comment underestimates: - supplies reading materials to jailed inmates - helps new residents navigate city services - manages the city archives - provides wifi access for the 10%+ of a big city that does not have wifi at home - gives free books to build book collections at home - loans tools and other "maker" equipment Not all libraries are funded well enough to do the above, and the specific definition of a library in 2024 is very hard to nail down - basically converges on a community center. All I'm saying is that libraries are making concerted efforts to break out of the traditional definition ("gatekeeper of information") - you should check out your local library to see all that they do!

WalterBright 3y ago

> one hardcover copy of Cook’s latest novel costs the library $18, it costs $55 to lease a digital copy I buy the used paperback used for $3. > a price that can't be haggled with publishers. Of course they can haggle. They just don't know how to.

samtho 3y ago
This is a poorly informed assessment. Nearly every single library system is subject to “take it or leave it” pricing and terms by publishers. The libraries need the publishers to purchase materials from, the publisher likely wishes the library was gone so they can think they are selling more product now.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  The library can buy the stuff used and the publishers make nothing off of such sales. I buy nearly all my books used.
  - samtho 3y ago
    Libraries cannot buy used because they need the asset prepared for circulation. This includes a protective cover, barcoding, etc. They usually have a vendor do this preparation, and the assets (books, usually) are often not the same as what you would find in a store, they can be different sizes to fit in Automatic Materials Handling Systems, have more robust binding, etc.
    - rahimnathwani 3y ago
      The books are often the same as what you would find in a store. It's possible to put a protective cover on a used book. The books at my local library come in many different sizes, including the size of a paperback novel.
      - WalterBright 3y ago

wolverine876 3y ago

The answer may be to change copyright law to allow book owners to freely shift mediums (I forget the term for it, but converting a paper book to PDF by scanning, or vice versa by printing), and to restrict the ability to lease everything - you buy it, you own it (a debate older than this issue, and there's term for that too). Then I could donate my book to the library, they could scan it (or buy a scanned copy), and as long as they restricted checkouts based on the number of copies, they'd be fine. The Internet Archive seems to do something similar, though it seems to be an issue in the courts. I wonder if libraries could donate their books to IA and direct patrons there for electronic versions.

margalabargala 3y ago
> The Internet Archive seems to do something similar, though it seems to be an issue in the courts. There was a brief period of time at the beginning of COVID when the Internet Archive decided to do away with the "one digital copy per purchase" restriction, essentially arguing that since libraries across the country were closed, this was justified. [0] The courts disagreed. [0] https://blog.archive.org/2020/03/24/announcing-a-national-emergency-library-to-provide-digitized-books-to-students-and-the-public/ https://blog.archive.org/2020/03/24/announcing-a-national-em...

deleted 3y ago

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