3 ms·

Wouldn't wheeled robots be better for flat factory floors, if it is supposed to deliver parts? What is the point of the legs. "Mercedes has started trialing an

Wouldn't wheeled robots be better for flat factory floors, if it is supposed to deliver parts? What is the point of the legs. "Mercedes has started trialing an undisclosed number of Apollo robots at a factory in Hungary. The country has experienced labor shortages for several years as workers migrate to Western Europe, with Audi and Mercedes having both expressed concerns regarding labor supply in 2016." Raise wages?

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Wouldn't wheeled robots be better for flat factory floors, if it is supposed to deliver parts? What is the point of the legs. Yeah but publishing videos of humanoid robots is proven to pump your car company stock to the moon. If Mercedes can also buy a cryptocurrency and a social media platform they're golden. >Raise wages? No no, you see we need open borders and visa free uncontrolled migration so companies have the upper hand and get to pick and choose whatever they want from the world labor pool until they find complacent workers on their terms, instead of having to pay locals competitively. Otherwise it's considered a labor shortage.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > we need open borders and visa free uncontrolled migration so companies have the upper hand and get to pick and choose from the world labor pool instead of the local one Hungary is in Schengen. Their workers left for higher-paying jobs. The company can’t move as easily because they already plopped down a plant. (Hungary is also one of the EU’s most migrant-sceptic members.)
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    /s mate
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      I know. I’m just pointing out that an uncontrolled immigration policy is in effect here, and it shifted power to labour. On the other hand, Hungary’s strict international migrant policy appears to weakening labour’s hand by encouraging automation.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        Firstly, it's no uncontrolled immigration here. It's controlled by the EU freedom of movement act. Uncontrolled immigration (bringing unlimited workers from outside the EU without restrictions) is what companies would actually want. Secondly, Mercedes moved to Hungary for cheap labor a while ago, and now that labor has fucked off to greener pastures Mercedes is now bitching that the cheap labor they came here for is no longer as cheap as they want it to be. If it wants to reattain those factory workers in Hungary they should pay competitively similarly to how they're retaining workers at their fabs in Germany. Why haven't they? It's not a labor shortage, it's sucker/exploitable worker shortage. >On the other hand, Hungary’s strict international migrant policy appears to weakening labour’s hand by encouraging automation. Do you see what you're saying here: "If labor doesn't agree to be exploited as their masters demand, then they'll have to be replaced by robots if they can't be replaced by cheaper immigrant workers". The workers' rights and benefits we enjoy today in the west, especially in Europe, didn't come from labor bending over to the demands of the business owning class, it cam from confrontations and labor sticking to their guns.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > it's no uncontrolled immigration here. It's controlled by the EU freedom of movement act What is the difference? If Schengen were extended to the world, wouldn’t one describe that as uncontrolled movement? > now that labor has fucked off to greener pastures(probably to Germany What effect do you think that had on German wages? The analogy is Germany:EU::EU:world. > labor doesn't agree to be exploited as their masters demand You don’t find it curious that the automation is happening in the low-cost plants first? There are a number of policy differences between Germany and Hungary, from collective-bargaining to legal stability. What’s interesting is how this case lets us isolate how Hungary’s migration policies undermine their workers in an unexpected way. > didn't come from labor bending over to the demands of the business owning class, it cam from confrontations and labor sticking to their guns We agree. My point is a collectively-bargaining Hungarian auto workforce would benefit from automating repetitive tasks (or giving them to non-Europeans). This shouldn’t be a conflict or confrontation. It’s turned into one due to Hungary’s politics redirecting anger at virtually non-existent migrants [1]. [1] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/11/29/in-a-hungary-devoid-of-immigrants-the-new-arrival-of-foreign-workers-raises-tensions_6297592_19.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/11/29/in-a-hu...
mwigdahl 3y ago
That would empower labor and reduce profits. Now hear me out, what if you could somehow transmute labor into capital? Then you could actually _own_ the labor and retain _all_ the surplus value generated from it!
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Wouldn't wheeled robots be better for flat factory floors, if it is supposed to deliver parts? It’s clearly intended to do more. > Raise wages? They have been [1], though not enough [2]. That said, it’s unclear whether the problem is ongoing emigration or past depletion. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/hungary-labour-carmakers-idUSL8N1CP35N/ https://www.reuters.com/article/hungary-labour-carmakers-idU... [2] https://www.hungarianconservative.com/articles/current/the-german-automotive-industry-in-hungary-an-unhealthy-dependence/ https://www.hungarianconservative.com/articles/current/the-g...
wongarsu 3y ago
But every car factory has wheeled robots, and fixed platform robots, and robots running on rails on the ceiling. And everyone is already used to robot dogs being deployed by just about everybody with an innovation budget. The only way left to have press about robots in a car factory is to make them bipedal. I'm betting that the 'undisclosed number' has exactly one digit, and the robots doing actual work is not part of the reason why Mercedes is doing this
idiotsecant 3y ago
>Raise wages? I think if the choice is between spending money now for r&d that enables future free labor or spending more now and forever on human labor it's obvious what choice a capitalist system incentives. We are rapidly approaching an inflection point where the rules of capitalism don't work anymore. The road bifurcates there and I'm not sure that we are capable of getting the good ending.
- lp4vn 3y ago
  >We are rapidly approaching an inflection point where the rules of capitalism don't work anymore. The road bifurcates there and I'm not sure that we are capable of getting the good ending. What are you talking about exactly? Can you elaborate?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > We are rapidly approaching an inflection point where the rules of capitalism don't work anymore I assume this is a reference to a technological singularity [1]. At the point capitalism breaks down, virtually every other social institution does as well. Until we know what that future looks like, and what the new constraints are, it is impossible to put in place a better system. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity
- rightbyte 3y ago
  Since when are long term profits of any concern? Also, first mover disadvantage. You can just wait for someone else to figure it out and learn from them. This is clearly a pet project or from the marketing budget.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>Wouldn't wheeled robots be better for flat factory floors, if it is supposed to deliver parts? What is the point of the legs. Yeah but publishing videos of humanoid robots is proven to pump your car company stock to the moon. If Mercedes can also buy a cryptocurrency and a social media platform they're golden. >Raise wages? No no, you see we need open borders and visa free uncontrolled migration so companies have the upper hand and get to pick and choose whatever they want from the world labor pool until they find complacent workers on their terms, instead of having to pay locals competitively. Otherwise it's considered a labor shortage.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> we need open borders and visa free uncontrolled migration so companies have the upper hand and get to pick and choose from the world labor pool instead of the local one Hungary is in Schengen. Their workers left for higher-paying jobs. The company can’t move as easily because they already plopped down a plant. (Hungary is also one of the EU’s most migrant-sceptic members.)
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  /s mate
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    I know. I’m just pointing out that an uncontrolled immigration policy is in effect here, and it shifted power to labour. On the other hand, Hungary’s strict international migrant policy appears to weakening labour’s hand by encouraging automation.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      Firstly, it's no uncontrolled immigration here. It's controlled by the EU freedom of movement act. Uncontrolled immigration (bringing unlimited workers from outside the EU without restrictions) is what companies would actually want. Secondly, Mercedes moved to Hungary for cheap labor a while ago, and now that labor has fucked off to greener pastures Mercedes is now bitching that the cheap labor they came here for is no longer as cheap as they want it to be. If it wants to reattain those factory workers in Hungary they should pay competitively similarly to how they're retaining workers at their fabs in Germany. Why haven't they? It's not a labor shortage, it's sucker/exploitable worker shortage. >On the other hand, Hungary’s strict international migrant policy appears to weakening labour’s hand by encouraging automation. Do you see what you're saying here: "If labor doesn't agree to be exploited as their masters demand, then they'll have to be replaced by robots if they can't be replaced by cheaper immigrant workers". The workers' rights and benefits we enjoy today in the west, especially in Europe, didn't come from labor bending over to the demands of the business owning class, it cam from confrontations and labor sticking to their guns.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > it's no uncontrolled immigration here. It's controlled by the EU freedom of movement act What is the difference? If Schengen were extended to the world, wouldn’t one describe that as uncontrolled movement? > now that labor has fucked off to greener pastures(probably to Germany What effect do you think that had on German wages? The analogy is Germany:EU::EU:world. > labor doesn't agree to be exploited as their masters demand You don’t find it curious that the automation is happening in the low-cost plants first? There are a number of policy differences between Germany and Hungary, from collective-bargaining to legal stability. What’s interesting is how this case lets us isolate how Hungary’s migration policies undermine their workers in an unexpected way. > didn't come from labor bending over to the demands of the business owning class, it cam from confrontations and labor sticking to their guns We agree. My point is a collectively-bargaining Hungarian auto workforce would benefit from automating repetitive tasks (or giving them to non-Europeans). This shouldn’t be a conflict or confrontation. It’s turned into one due to Hungary’s politics redirecting anger at virtually non-existent migrants [1]. [1] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/11/29/in-a-hungary-devoid-of-immigrants-the-new-arrival-of-foreign-workers-raises-tensions_6297592_19.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/11/29/in-a-hu...

mwigdahl 3y ago

That would empower labor and reduce profits. Now hear me out, what if you could somehow transmute labor into capital? Then you could actually _own_ the labor and retain _all_ the surplus value generated from it!

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> Wouldn't wheeled robots be better for flat factory floors, if it is supposed to deliver parts? It’s clearly intended to do more. > Raise wages? They have been [1], though not enough [2]. That said, it’s unclear whether the problem is ongoing emigration or past depletion. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/hungary-labour-carmakers-idUSL8N1CP35N/ https://www.reuters.com/article/hungary-labour-carmakers-idU... [2] https://www.hungarianconservative.com/articles/current/the-german-automotive-industry-in-hungary-an-unhealthy-dependence/ https://www.hungarianconservative.com/articles/current/the-g...

wongarsu 3y ago

But every car factory has wheeled robots, and fixed platform robots, and robots running on rails on the ceiling. And everyone is already used to robot dogs being deployed by just about everybody with an innovation budget. The only way left to have press about robots in a car factory is to make them bipedal. I'm betting that the 'undisclosed number' has exactly one digit, and the robots doing actual work is not part of the reason why Mercedes is doing this

idiotsecant 3y ago

>Raise wages? I think if the choice is between spending money now for r&d that enables future free labor or spending more now and forever on human labor it's obvious what choice a capitalist system incentives. We are rapidly approaching an inflection point where the rules of capitalism don't work anymore. The road bifurcates there and I'm not sure that we are capable of getting the good ending.

lp4vn 3y ago
>We are rapidly approaching an inflection point where the rules of capitalism don't work anymore. The road bifurcates there and I'm not sure that we are capable of getting the good ending. What are you talking about exactly? Can you elaborate?
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> We are rapidly approaching an inflection point where the rules of capitalism don't work anymore I assume this is a reference to a technological singularity [1]. At the point capitalism breaks down, virtually every other social institution does as well. Until we know what that future looks like, and what the new constraints are, it is impossible to put in place a better system. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity
rightbyte 3y ago
Since when are long term profits of any concern? Also, first mover disadvantage. You can just wait for someone else to figure it out and learn from them. This is clearly a pet project or from the marketing budget.