4 ms·

I feel like when there is financial malfeasance, we find enough cases of it in the wild to document that it has really happened. Whether it's Enron, or stories

I feel like when there is financial malfeasance, we find enough cases of it in the wild to document that it has really happened. Whether it's Enron, or stories of lobbyists and politicians acting in self interest in ways that break the law, or even just municipal officials embezzling, we have known cases of that. So if you ever have the feeling that big financial transactions might be ethically questionable, you can at least know that such things have happened in the wild. I think the same is true of war crimes in wars - enough of the worst type of things have really happened, and been documented, so there's nothing on the face of it that is outlandish if you heard a new report of such a thing. But how about deaths in suspicious circumstances like this one? Is there a historical record of these kinds of things being carried out, especially in the western world, in circumstances where the motive is corporate self-interest? What's the most clear cut case we have of something falling in that falls into (for lack of a better term) the Michael Clayton category?

MeatBro 3y ago
Tommy Chui, cigarette smuggling. [1]: https://www.icij.org/investigations/big-tobacco-smuggling/bat-finds-partner-asias-most-notorious-criminal-organization/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/big-tobacco-smuggling/ba...
runeofdoom 3y ago
Karen Silkwood https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Silkwood https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Silkwood
superb-owl 3y ago
It reminds me closely of Gary Webb's death, though the circumstances are different: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb#Death But more to your question, I think a great example of corporate self-interest leading to serious crimes is the Ebay stalking scandal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal
- unyttigfjelltol 3y ago
  Ah, WaPo debunked Gary's accurate critique of the CIA, rendering the whole thing a conspiracy theory. I expect nothing less of the CIA but seriously, is WaPo anything more than a blight on journalism?
  - Slava_Propanei 3y ago
    [dead]
brabel 3y ago
Perhaps the death of Jeffrey Epstein shows that this sort of thing does happen in the West. I know the case is not of the same kind, but the perpetrator was very likely a corporate type trying to protect their reputation, which is at least close.
- Loughla 3y ago
  All joking aside, was there anything in the Epstein case to indicate foul play or is it just a meme? I can't find anything reputable.
  - glenstein 3y ago
    Right, there's a lot of stuff relating to the circumstances that certainly suggestive, and I wouldn't fault anyone for holding presumptions entertaining the possibility of undiscovered details. But that said, it's still important to keep it clear dividing line between what we think and what we know for sure.
  - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
    > is there anything in the Epstein case to indicate foul play We have no evidence. It is more that Epstein knew a lot of bad things about some of the most powerful people in the country. It makes sense that they would have wanted him killed, or even that they would have wanted to fake his death to make the court case go away. People who would kill to save themselves would be just as likely to kill a drifter and give that body to the coroner, along with very clear threats to stay quiet. Of course we have no evidence, we can only speculate. But this is exactly the kind of thing people at these power levels will do, as we know often people at this level will kill thousands of people if it suits them.
    - Fatnino 3y ago
      There is still an argument to be made for him having killed himself. He was facing inevitable life in prison while branded as a pedophile. Frankly, offing himself to avoid that was the most logical move.
jonplackett 3y ago
Dr Kelly still v suspicious https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/16/david-kelly-death-10-years-on https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/16/david-kelly...
- jasonm23 3y ago
  Deeply suspicious
fireflies_ 3y ago
This application of "base rates thinking" was helpful for me - a bit out of left field, I'm aware of the concept and use it sometimes but wouldn't have thought to do so here. Thanks!
hammock 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_body_count_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_body_count_conspiracy_...
dzonga 3y ago
if Boeing wasn't a major defense contractor -- then yeah. you could easily say suicide. but since they're in bed with 3 letter agencies. it becomes a whole different game altogether. since there's a 3 letter agency that has nailed the assassination game to a T. whether on home soil or abroad.
- uaserussia 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - renegade-otter 3y ago
    The "highly-skilled" assassin is kind of a myth. Most killers-for-hire are idiots. This is Michael Clayton stuff, but the assassination in the movie is much more "elegant".
    - krapp 3y ago
      Most killers-for-hire are undercover cops. But Boeing wouldn't be hiring a guy off of rent-a-hitman.com, they have access to groups like Blackwater who literally murder people for the government as a business. They could just ask for whoever did Epstein or Seth Rich (allegedly.)
      - renegade-otter 3y ago
        I highly doubt that some suit at Boeing picked up the phone and asked the DoD for a reference. It's not how these things go, and it's much more dumb in real life. Something closer to Fargo.
- Two4 3y ago
  At the nexus of defense contractors, arms brokers, intelligence and private military contractors, there exist the kind of men who have spent many years doing dirty deeds for various masters, and have no scruples if the pay is right. They have access to the resources, knowledge and connections required to kill someone and not get caught. They operate in a deniable manner, free of the paper trails and accountability of any government entity, but still operate at the same level. These men would be eminently accessible with only one or two degrees of separation for an executive of a defense contractor
unyttigfjelltol 3y ago
For notorious and violent conspiracies, see RICO Act examples. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act#Famous_cases https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Cor...

MeatBro 3y ago

Tommy Chui, cigarette smuggling. [1]: https://www.icij.org/investigations/big-tobacco-smuggling/bat-finds-partner-asias-most-notorious-criminal-organization/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/big-tobacco-smuggling/ba...

runeofdoom 3y ago

Karen Silkwood https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Silkwood https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Silkwood

superb-owl 3y ago

It reminds me closely of Gary Webb's death, though the circumstances are different: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb#Death But more to your question, I think a great example of corporate self-interest leading to serious crimes is the Ebay stalking scandal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal

unyttigfjelltol 3y ago
Ah, WaPo debunked Gary's accurate critique of the CIA, rendering the whole thing a conspiracy theory. I expect nothing less of the CIA but seriously, is WaPo anything more than a blight on journalism?
- Slava_Propanei 3y ago
  [dead]

brabel 3y ago

Perhaps the death of Jeffrey Epstein shows that this sort of thing does happen in the West. I know the case is not of the same kind, but the perpetrator was very likely a corporate type trying to protect their reputation, which is at least close.

Loughla 3y ago
All joking aside, was there anything in the Epstein case to indicate foul play or is it just a meme? I can't find anything reputable.
- glenstein 3y ago
  Right, there's a lot of stuff relating to the circumstances that certainly suggestive, and I wouldn't fault anyone for holding presumptions entertaining the possibility of undiscovered details. But that said, it's still important to keep it clear dividing line between what we think and what we know for sure.
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  > is there anything in the Epstein case to indicate foul play We have no evidence. It is more that Epstein knew a lot of bad things about some of the most powerful people in the country. It makes sense that they would have wanted him killed, or even that they would have wanted to fake his death to make the court case go away. People who would kill to save themselves would be just as likely to kill a drifter and give that body to the coroner, along with very clear threats to stay quiet. Of course we have no evidence, we can only speculate. But this is exactly the kind of thing people at these power levels will do, as we know often people at this level will kill thousands of people if it suits them.
  - Fatnino 3y ago
    There is still an argument to be made for him having killed himself. He was facing inevitable life in prison while branded as a pedophile. Frankly, offing himself to avoid that was the most logical move.

jonplackett 3y ago

Dr Kelly still v suspicious https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/16/david-kelly-death-10-years-on https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/16/david-kelly...

jasonm23 3y ago
Deeply suspicious

fireflies_ 3y ago

This application of "base rates thinking" was helpful for me - a bit out of left field, I'm aware of the concept and use it sometimes but wouldn't have thought to do so here. Thanks!

hammock 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_body_count_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_body_count_conspiracy_...

dzonga 3y ago

if Boeing wasn't a major defense contractor -- then yeah. you could easily say suicide. but since they're in bed with 3 letter agencies. it becomes a whole different game altogether. since there's a 3 letter agency that has nailed the assassination game to a T. whether on home soil or abroad.

uaserussia 3y ago
[flagged]
- renegade-otter 3y ago
  The "highly-skilled" assassin is kind of a myth. Most killers-for-hire are idiots. This is Michael Clayton stuff, but the assassination in the movie is much more "elegant".
  - krapp 3y ago
    Most killers-for-hire are undercover cops. But Boeing wouldn't be hiring a guy off of rent-a-hitman.com, they have access to groups like Blackwater who literally murder people for the government as a business. They could just ask for whoever did Epstein or Seth Rich (allegedly.)
    - renegade-otter 3y ago
      I highly doubt that some suit at Boeing picked up the phone and asked the DoD for a reference. It's not how these things go, and it's much more dumb in real life. Something closer to Fargo.
Two4 3y ago
At the nexus of defense contractors, arms brokers, intelligence and private military contractors, there exist the kind of men who have spent many years doing dirty deeds for various masters, and have no scruples if the pay is right. They have access to the resources, knowledge and connections required to kill someone and not get caught. They operate in a deniable manner, free of the paper trails and accountability of any government entity, but still operate at the same level. These men would be eminently accessible with only one or two degrees of separation for an executive of a defense contractor

unyttigfjelltol 3y ago

For notorious and violent conspiracies, see RICO Act examples. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act#Famous_cases https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Cor...