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>or worse, soft pine or particleboard or OSB Having done a lot of DIY projects over the last decade, I've really shifted my view of OSB. Originally I would lu

>or worse, soft pine or particleboard or OSB Having done a lot of DIY projects over the last decade, I've really shifted my view of OSB. Originally I would lump it in with particleboard, but I've since drastically changed my view of it. Particleboard is, truly, junk. OSB and plywood are both pretty good products, and for some uses superior to hardwoods (dimensional stability, for example). High quality plywoods are amazing products. OSB for structure or underlayments are really quite good.

Wohlf 3y ago
Particleboard is absolutely useless, MDF is mostly useless except using as a guaranteed flat surface on top of something to support it, hardboard is pretty useful in certain applications though. OSB is great and extremely affordable as sheathing, and there's a massive variety of plywood that's great for their respective purposes - from cheap rough sheathing, mid-grade for shop projects and filling large gaps in furniture, all the way up to beautiful and supremely strong Baltic birch.
- teleforce 3y ago
  Avoid particleboard like a plague if you can afford it, appparently most of IKEA products now made of these since they are widely being used in dirt cheap furniture construction. They melt like ice once in contact with water. Recently, just had to chopped off all four legs of a bookshelf then replaced them with metal legs. The bookshelf legs somehow got damaged in contact with accumulated air-cond water droplets.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    Ikea has two or three price points for each product. The cheapest will be made from chipboard or even cardboard. The most expensive varies, it might be pine or even something better.
    - sgc 3y ago
      I bought their highest end leather couch with a fold out bed a couple years ago, due to time constraints. I was very unhappy to see it was made from chipboard. Of course their shelves and such you can see what you are buying, but I would not trust anything upholstered myself.
      - Symbiote 3y ago
        Indeed: > Frame: Plywood, Polyurethane foam 30 kg/cu.m., Particleboard, Solid wood, Fibreboard An example of something that looks well-built is the Skogsta dining table [1]. > Table top: Solid acacia, Clear acrylic lacquer, Clear lacquer > Leg/ Rail: Solid acacia, Acrylic paint (Though the oak version, which costs more, is oak-veneered particleboard.) Many Ikea things aren't designed to last. That table has cross-beams, so it has a better chance surviving a party where someone leans heavily against one end of it. Something like Mörbylånga [2] looks like it would collapse. I would give the furniture on display a good shove to see how sturdy it is. [1] https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/skogsta-dining-table-acacia-70419264/ https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/skogsta-dining-table-acacia-704... [2] https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/moerbylanga-table-oak-veneer-brown-stained-20293766/ https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/moerbylanga-table-oak-veneer-br...
        didon 3y ago
        I actually have the Mörbylånga table at home and I find it very sturdy. One thing which the pictures doesn't show is that there are two supporting beams under the table, which provides the necessary strength to not collapse on first touch. Obviously, I have not done the actual test, but I will try to remember and report back if the table ever breaks.
        Naracion 3y ago
        Tangential, but if your table doesn't break in the next few days then you won't be able to report back, since editing and replying to comments get disabled after some days. I don't know what the exact time frame is like though.
  - swayvil 3y ago
    Just finished a walkin closet cabinet (from kits) installation. All walls, floor to ceiling, veneered particleboard. Heavy, fragile, crumbly, weirdly hard. Rather nope. Blame the client.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  > Particleboard is absolutely useless, MDF is mostly useless except using as a guaranteed flat surface on top of something to support it Unless there is a drop of moisture, then you throw it all away. It’s so depressingly wasteful.
  - jspash 3y ago
    I could be wrong, but isn't MDF basically made from the waste of wood products? I mean, it's graded and standarised. But MDF _is_ the waste. So to waste it again is no great loss. But as with all things, I'm certain some producers are using raw/virgin materials. Probably from wood that is dirt cheap.
    - samtho 3y ago
      MDF is an engineered product comprised of homogenized hard and soft wood pulp, binding agents. It is dehydrated and pressed together to create a material that is of higher density than fiber board. The amount of sawdust needed to create a sheet of this stuff is astronomical compared to the output, not to mention the manufacturing process being very resource intensive. You also cannot just take bags of sawdust from the wood mill - it must be macerated and ground to a very fine dust with roughly the consistency of flour. The main advantage it has is that it is heavy (to weigh down furniture) and very easy to cut with bandsaws, mills, lasers, etc because of its uniform distribution of its constituent parts. It’s also good for applying vinyl wraps and edging which is one reason why arcade cabinets are often made from it. All this for a product that is roughly the same price as A cabinet-grade ply: MDF 3/4” x 4’ x 8’ for $52.98: https://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-MDF-Panel-D11612490970000/304325742 https://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-MDF-Panel-D... Radiata Pine plywood 23/32” x 4’ x 8’ for $55.98: https://www.homedepot.com/p/23-32-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Cabinet-Grade-Plywood-Panel-Actual-0-688-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-1077486/302610611 https://www.homedepot.com/p/23-32-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Cabinet-G...
  - linsomniac 3y ago
    I ended up doing MDF tops for my workbench (1" MDF over 3/4 plywood), and finished them with shelac for a protected, low-friction surface. It is still vulnerable to water damage, but not as bad as unfinished, and as a spoil layer it's not bad. It has plusses and minuses.
- EraYaN 3y ago
  MDF is also great if you need homogeneous materials (for stuff like speaker cabinets). And for those more than sturdy enough, they are also always protected by some layer.
  - TimeBearingDown 3y ago
    Yes. I went on a deep dive recently looking for the sweet spot in affordable speakers and subwoofers for near field and home theatre use, and noted that almost every top performer under 1000USD per unit used entirely MDF cabinets. The exception was the Monolith THX series by Monoprice that pay up for HDF and still do well at their price point.
alexey-salmin 3y ago
OSB is durable but you still need to be wary of formaldehyde in your home
- doublesocket 3y ago
  There's a good choice in formaldehyde free boards these days. In the UK a popular one is Sterling Zero.
iamtheworstdev 3y ago
Agreed. The range on plywood is pretty drastic and most of us only use the bad stuff. I wonder how many of us with homes made in the last 20-30 years realize that most of our joists are engineered joists made of plywood (basically wooden I-beams).
- throwway120385 3y ago
  The alternative is usually a truss which tend to bounce like a trampoline over long spans. The engineered I-joists are really good, and the rim joist from the same company is ridiculously tough.
_heimdall 3y ago
The sheer amount of glue used in OSB and other manufactured sheet wood is pretty gross unfortunately. They are functionally useful for certain use cases, I just can't get myself to reach for it over real lumber and joinery.
- jorts 3y ago
  Why does the glue concern you?
  - bhickey 3y ago
    Off gassing. Plywood is a big VOC emitter.
  - kansface 3y ago
    Its carcinogenic.
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    Others touched on it too, but I don't like all the chemicals in the wood or all the energy required to make it. If I'm building something I try really hard to avoid it, I can only assume the dust is really toxic to breath in and I don't have money or space for a fancy dust collection system.
wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
The issue with OSB, unless you get the ECO one, is the formaldehyde. It's basically pieces wood glued together. And generally bad for air quality. A few might be okay, but I've seen entire startup buildings covered in it.
anthomtb 3y ago
I recently put shelving up in my garage and could not convince myself to use anything other than OSB. It was just so damn cheap - half the price of any plywood for the same thickness. The only cons are the appearance and screw holding ability (but its sitting on brackets so the latter doesn't matter much). Baltic birch would be stronger, no doubt, but that's 3 times the price and I am not exactly storing a geode collection up there.
pubby 3y ago
OSB is much more nuanced than particle board, often in a bad way. Many manufactures orient the chips along a single axis, meaning it shares the anisotropic properties of solid wood where the X axis has a different strength and expansion rate than the Y axis. And looking at the 3rd dimension, the Z axis is actually quite weak. If you glue something to the face of an OSB board, you can break the joint fairly easily because the individual chips pull out.

Wohlf 3y ago

Particleboard is absolutely useless, MDF is mostly useless except using as a guaranteed flat surface on top of something to support it, hardboard is pretty useful in certain applications though. OSB is great and extremely affordable as sheathing, and there's a massive variety of plywood that's great for their respective purposes - from cheap rough sheathing, mid-grade for shop projects and filling large gaps in furniture, all the way up to beautiful and supremely strong Baltic birch.

teleforce 3y ago
Avoid particleboard like a plague if you can afford it, appparently most of IKEA products now made of these since they are widely being used in dirt cheap furniture construction. They melt like ice once in contact with water. Recently, just had to chopped off all four legs of a bookshelf then replaced them with metal legs. The bookshelf legs somehow got damaged in contact with accumulated air-cond water droplets.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  Ikea has two or three price points for each product. The cheapest will be made from chipboard or even cardboard. The most expensive varies, it might be pine or even something better.
  - sgc 3y ago
    I bought their highest end leather couch with a fold out bed a couple years ago, due to time constraints. I was very unhappy to see it was made from chipboard. Of course their shelves and such you can see what you are buying, but I would not trust anything upholstered myself.
    - Symbiote 3y ago
      Indeed: > Frame: Plywood, Polyurethane foam 30 kg/cu.m., Particleboard, Solid wood, Fibreboard An example of something that looks well-built is the Skogsta dining table [1]. > Table top: Solid acacia, Clear acrylic lacquer, Clear lacquer > Leg/ Rail: Solid acacia, Acrylic paint (Though the oak version, which costs more, is oak-veneered particleboard.) Many Ikea things aren't designed to last. That table has cross-beams, so it has a better chance surviving a party where someone leans heavily against one end of it. Something like Mörbylånga [2] looks like it would collapse. I would give the furniture on display a good shove to see how sturdy it is. [1] https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/skogsta-dining-table-acacia-70419264/ https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/skogsta-dining-table-acacia-704... [2] https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/moerbylanga-table-oak-veneer-brown-stained-20293766/ https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/moerbylanga-table-oak-veneer-br...
      - didon 3y ago
        I actually have the Mörbylånga table at home and I find it very sturdy. One thing which the pictures doesn't show is that there are two supporting beams under the table, which provides the necessary strength to not collapse on first touch. Obviously, I have not done the actual test, but I will try to remember and report back if the table ever breaks.
        Naracion 3y ago
        Tangential, but if your table doesn't break in the next few days then you won't be able to report back, since editing and replying to comments get disabled after some days. I don't know what the exact time frame is like though.
- swayvil 3y ago
  Just finished a walkin closet cabinet (from kits) installation. All walls, floor to ceiling, veneered particleboard. Heavy, fragile, crumbly, weirdly hard. Rather nope. Blame the client.
lostlogin 3y ago
> Particleboard is absolutely useless, MDF is mostly useless except using as a guaranteed flat surface on top of something to support it Unless there is a drop of moisture, then you throw it all away. It’s so depressingly wasteful.
- jspash 3y ago
  I could be wrong, but isn't MDF basically made from the waste of wood products? I mean, it's graded and standarised. But MDF _is_ the waste. So to waste it again is no great loss. But as with all things, I'm certain some producers are using raw/virgin materials. Probably from wood that is dirt cheap.
  - samtho 3y ago
    MDF is an engineered product comprised of homogenized hard and soft wood pulp, binding agents. It is dehydrated and pressed together to create a material that is of higher density than fiber board. The amount of sawdust needed to create a sheet of this stuff is astronomical compared to the output, not to mention the manufacturing process being very resource intensive. You also cannot just take bags of sawdust from the wood mill - it must be macerated and ground to a very fine dust with roughly the consistency of flour. The main advantage it has is that it is heavy (to weigh down furniture) and very easy to cut with bandsaws, mills, lasers, etc because of its uniform distribution of its constituent parts. It’s also good for applying vinyl wraps and edging which is one reason why arcade cabinets are often made from it. All this for a product that is roughly the same price as A cabinet-grade ply: MDF 3/4” x 4’ x 8’ for $52.98: https://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-MDF-Panel-D11612490970000/304325742 https://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-MDF-Panel-D... Radiata Pine plywood 23/32” x 4’ x 8’ for $55.98: https://www.homedepot.com/p/23-32-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Cabinet-Grade-Plywood-Panel-Actual-0-688-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-1077486/302610611 https://www.homedepot.com/p/23-32-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Cabinet-G...
- linsomniac 3y ago
  I ended up doing MDF tops for my workbench (1" MDF over 3/4 plywood), and finished them with shelac for a protected, low-friction surface. It is still vulnerable to water damage, but not as bad as unfinished, and as a spoil layer it's not bad. It has plusses and minuses.
EraYaN 3y ago
MDF is also great if you need homogeneous materials (for stuff like speaker cabinets). And for those more than sturdy enough, they are also always protected by some layer.
- TimeBearingDown 3y ago
  Yes. I went on a deep dive recently looking for the sweet spot in affordable speakers and subwoofers for near field and home theatre use, and noted that almost every top performer under 1000USD per unit used entirely MDF cabinets. The exception was the Monolith THX series by Monoprice that pay up for HDF and still do well at their price point.

alexey-salmin 3y ago

OSB is durable but you still need to be wary of formaldehyde in your home

doublesocket 3y ago
There's a good choice in formaldehyde free boards these days. In the UK a popular one is Sterling Zero.

iamtheworstdev 3y ago

Agreed. The range on plywood is pretty drastic and most of us only use the bad stuff. I wonder how many of us with homes made in the last 20-30 years realize that most of our joists are engineered joists made of plywood (basically wooden I-beams).

throwway120385 3y ago
The alternative is usually a truss which tend to bounce like a trampoline over long spans. The engineered I-joists are really good, and the rim joist from the same company is ridiculously tough.

_heimdall 3y ago

The sheer amount of glue used in OSB and other manufactured sheet wood is pretty gross unfortunately. They are functionally useful for certain use cases, I just can't get myself to reach for it over real lumber and joinery.

jorts 3y ago
Why does the glue concern you?
- bhickey 3y ago
  Off gassing. Plywood is a big VOC emitter.
- kansface 3y ago
  Its carcinogenic.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  Others touched on it too, but I don't like all the chemicals in the wood or all the energy required to make it. If I'm building something I try really hard to avoid it, I can only assume the dust is really toxic to breath in and I don't have money or space for a fancy dust collection system.

wouldbecouldbe 3y ago

The issue with OSB, unless you get the ECO one, is the formaldehyde. It's basically pieces wood glued together. And generally bad for air quality. A few might be okay, but I've seen entire startup buildings covered in it.

anthomtb 3y ago

I recently put shelving up in my garage and could not convince myself to use anything other than OSB. It was just so damn cheap - half the price of any plywood for the same thickness. The only cons are the appearance and screw holding ability (but its sitting on brackets so the latter doesn't matter much). Baltic birch would be stronger, no doubt, but that's 3 times the price and I am not exactly storing a geode collection up there.

pubby 3y ago

OSB is much more nuanced than particle board, often in a bad way. Many manufactures orient the chips along a single axis, meaning it shares the anisotropic properties of solid wood where the X axis has a different strength and expansion rate than the Y axis. And looking at the 3rd dimension, the Z axis is actually quite weak. If you glue something to the face of an OSB board, you can break the joint fairly easily because the individual chips pull out.