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I’m really worried that there’s a trend to normalize narcissistic and sociopathic behavior simply because “they are self aware” There are a few ASPD, NPD or na

I’m really worried that there’s a trend to normalize narcissistic and sociopathic behavior simply because “they are self aware” There are a few ASPD, NPD or narcissist Instagram pages which are clearly sociopaths getting their attention fix by acknowledging and describing these behaviors - this isn’t the same as recovery groups or serious interventions because ASPD has been seen as impossible to treat (though that’s slowly changing by viewing it as a basket of disorders) So it seems like we have basically birthed an entirely new class of advanced sociopaths who can recognize their behaviors, pretend like they’re actually working towards fixing them, even warning people that they aren’t safe so they get a free pass on their behavior. In the meantime, they just continue to act in only their own best interest, while shrugging their shoulders, and throwing their hands up, saying “what can I do? I’m working on it.” Sociopath awareness pins coming soon? So let’s not get confused here. Self reported non clinically observed sociopaths don’t meet the DSM definition for ASPD because lack of guilt, not simply the awareness of antisocial behavior. One can certainly argue about definitions, but experience in narcissistic abuse survivors groups (many of which I am in) is consistent and robust in identifying major behavioral patterns including self-aggrandizement. This isn’t a disability, sociopathy is a self-propelled toxic character trait, typically resulting from deep childhood trauma that our society rewards structurally. Numerous studies indicate high correlation with aspd and powerful positions so it’s not like this group needs a leg up. Mostly we just need to identify and isolate people with ASPD as quickly as possible. I’m unaware of anything more destructive than a smart sociopath and it seems the acceptance of them is growing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder#Diagnosis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disor... https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20353934 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-pe...

cupcakecommons 3y ago
incredibly tiresome and stupid trend if it exists
hjanssen 3y ago
So what is your proposed solution? I'd rather have a sociopath that is upfront about being one to me than figuring that fact out by myself. Shunning those people from society seems like not an option to me, they are people after all. I think normalizing sociopathic behaviour is something to be worried about, but I personally don't see that happening anywhere so I am unsure what your point is.
- stormfather 3y ago
  Let's genetically profile for it, and if there's a link, screen for embryos that don't have it. This would require a bit more technological advancement of course. But imagine, a world without sociopaths! It would be the biggest generational improvement in the world in history.
  - idiotsecant 3y ago
    I feel the urge to bring up a slippery slope argument but it's so obvious that it makes itself.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    This is definitely not it
    - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
      It unironically and simply is it, albeit on hold for civilizations morally paralyzed by the trauma of WW2.
  - binary132 3y ago
    Funny joke! I get it!
- dirtybirdnj 3y ago
  > I think normalizing sociopathic behaviour is something to be worried about, but I personally don't see that happening anywhere so I am unsure what your point is. The normalization of sociopathic behavior is pretty clear to see in politics and celebrity culture. If you don't see it you have had your eyes willfully closed to it for 10+ yrs. Maybe you have or are currently engaged in some of these behaviors and you "can't see" them because it would damage your ego's view of yourself as a good person who deserves the success they have experienced. > Shunning those people from society seems like not an option to me, they are people after all This is effectively what happens to the victims of the sociopaths. They are driven out from the margins. The way I read this is "sociopaths can do whatever they want, but when others complain they are the problem". I cannot stress how wrong that last statement is. So much suffering and therapy to recover from people who behaved this way. People at the top. Bosses. Managers. People who were supposed to be looking out for the group and were not.
h2odragon 3y ago
So what would you tell a "smart sociopath" to do? Someone who wants to live and pursue their own happiness without diminishing that of others? Should they just cease to exist? Retreat somewhere they can't hurt others and live apart from society because society has no place for their disability? Or is it possible to fit in and be useful even if you're neuro divergent?
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  I genuinely don’t know because there’s no rehabilitation structure that the medical system has identified as useful Low IQ sociopaths are typically institutionalized or are homeless of some sort High IQ sociopaths tend to be managers or intermediaries that do not break laws but exploit social graciousness and live in the minutae or vagaries So my answer is: get them out of your org or life as quickly as possible and don’t look back. I’m trying to create a world where acting like a narcissist is effectively impossible - the world we have created promotes narcissistic behavior
  - h2odragon 3y ago
    And if it is my life? I've got a lonely mountain in the woods, way out with few neighbors. me and my hounds can hunt and not bother nobody. I find it difficult for numerous reasons to interact with people in social situations, not least being that people smell tasty. My awareness of this fact is something that people pick up on. it snowballs. It'd be nice if I could contribute to society but there's not that many ways I've found, and i've mostly given up trying. now i settle for Socratic snark.
    - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
      Fully embracing of one’s truest self is arguably enlightenment
      - jdmn73 3y ago
        Maybe don't encourage the person that says people smell tasty to do that
haswell 3y ago
> This isn’t a disability, sociopathy is a self-propelled toxic character trait, typically resulting from deep childhood trauma that our society rewards structurally I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make here. If this is a result of deep childhood trauma, in what way is it self propelled? > Mostly we just need to identify and isolate people with ASPD as quickly as possible. This seems pretty horrific to me. Assuming ASPD exists on a spectrum, and assuming it’s possible to treat it or at least manage it, it seems like the absolute worst option is to isolate people, the realities of which would almost certainly mean grouping people with these traits together. Furthermore, if indeed trauma is the cause, it seems even more horrific to categorically discard people who have undergone this kind of hardship through no fault of their own. I’m not saying people who cause harm to others should get a free pass. But what you’re describing seems untenable from a moral/ethical standpoint, to say nothing of the practical implications.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  I’d make a strong argument that the vast majority of the world’s ills are a result of narcissists being in charge of most of the organizations worldwide You seem to have in mind some poor beaten down person struggling to survive Instead these are the people I’m talking about: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/13/tim-gurner-unemployment/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/13/tim-gurner-u... Basically every banker, vc, public company CEO, dictatorial district manager, slave driving dispatcher, cold calling scammer etc….
  - haswell 3y ago
    Clearly there are people who cause harm. That is not what I'm reacting to. I'm pushing against the ideas that: 1. This is somehow "self-directed" (which again makes no sense in the context of acknowledging childhood trauma) 2. Every manifestation of this trait leads to great harm (leaving no room for a spectrum or treatment/management) 3. We should "identify and isolate" people with this trait What does 3 even entail in your mind? How would this play out practically speaking?
    - 3y ago
idiotsecant 3y ago
some of the biggest names in history were almost certainly sociopaths. And they were sometimes quite a positive net force. Just about everyone can be put to productive use in the right place, i'm not sure we need to isolate (?) anyone.
- dirtybirdnj 3y ago
  I agree that people should be given the opportunity for their natural gifts being used effectively. I do NOT think "I'm a sociopath, sorry that doesn't bother me" is ever an acceptable resolution to the damage, pain and suffering they cause. If you help 100 but you have to destroy 5 to get there, was it worth it? I do not think people deserve the benefit of the doubt to make this ethical call. The problem with sociopaths is they HAVE NO ETHICS OR MORALS. You cannot "teach them to feel"... it's like trying to teach a starfish to speak. The only thing you can do is give them negative consequences to their actions. If their actions worked in the past they will repeat them. If those are negative behaviors, they don't see / care that they had to "step on some toes this time".... it simply becomes that toe stepping is now a normal point along an ever-escalating path of social violence and disregard for others. The whole "we can't pathologies it because the sociopath doesn't think they have a problem" point is the main issue for me. If someone was smoking in an enclosed room... and others asked them to stop it would be cut and dry. But because the person is being socially manipulative instead of breathing toxic carcinogens it's acceptable? Bad words ok, bad oxygen BAD! Why is this so hard to understand that the bad social behavior is JUST AS TOXIC. I completely reject this. Socially manipulative behavior is wrong and destructive. I don't care how bad your childhood was your sociopathic manipulation is not justified in any way.
  - sociopath-2024 3y ago
    sometimes (maybe even most of the time) socially manipulative behavior is destructive. but surely not all the time. for example, it might enable you to build a world leading ai company
    - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
dirtybirdnj 3y ago
> This isn’t a disability, sociopathy is a self-propelled toxic character trait, typically resulting from deep childhood trauma that our society rewards structurally. > Mostly we just need to identify and isolate people with ASPD as quickly as possible. I find this interesting as it relates to the autism spectrum... there is pretty universal resistance to accommodating / understanding the difficulties people face. It seems like a really uphill battle to get people who benefit from their toxicity to voluntarily take a "more difficult" route than they otherwise can. I suggest that we don't need to do anything with the APSD folks, what we need to do is normalize the idea that their behavior is abusive and support folks who are structurally disadvantaged via their behaviors. If enough of regular society gets tired of their shit they will take corrective action... until their behavior "looks bad" to others they have no incentive to cooperate.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  Fully concur and I think you describe better what I mean by isolate The idea of isolating those people is that we actively reject abusive narcissistic behavior with no qualifications. That means it’s a one strike you’re out rule socially for toxic behavior
  - dirtybirdnj 3y ago
    > actively reject abusive narcissistic behavior with no qualifications. There is an inherently difficult task in this. To combat manipulators, we must ourselves engage in manipulation of others whether we like it or not. Depending on how skillful the ASPD person is, trying to call them out on their behavior may actually simply be "outing" yourself to a group that has no interest in hearing what your saying. This can be INCREDIBLY stressful in work or school settings where removing yourself from the social situation is impossible. Eventually the only way to "win" is to walk away, and in doing so at times cut yourself off from social groups. This just allows the ASPD person to tar your name and further manipulate others to isolate you. "Living your best life is the best revenge" yeah sure but it's hard to do this with less of a social group... it doesn't feel good to lose friends even if the reason you are "losing" them is a choice to not tolerate their behavior. I said this in another post, but the real challenge is convincing general society that the awful behavior of psychopaths and sociopaths is in fact bad. That not having or even making an attempt to practice empathy does in fact make you a bad person. The cheerleaders of the sociopaths have been duped, manipulated and controlled into submission by people who have no regard for their wellbeing. In my experience most people are unable to accept this reality. The ones who at least can accept part of it, or agree and have seen the unfairness are the type of people NT or ND that are worth interacting with and need to be seen as advocates and beacons of hope.

cupcakecommons 3y ago

incredibly tiresome and stupid trend if it exists

hjanssen 3y ago

So what is your proposed solution? I'd rather have a sociopath that is upfront about being one to me than figuring that fact out by myself. Shunning those people from society seems like not an option to me, they are people after all. I think normalizing sociopathic behaviour is something to be worried about, but I personally don't see that happening anywhere so I am unsure what your point is.

stormfather 3y ago
Let's genetically profile for it, and if there's a link, screen for embryos that don't have it. This would require a bit more technological advancement of course. But imagine, a world without sociopaths! It would be the biggest generational improvement in the world in history.
- idiotsecant 3y ago
  I feel the urge to bring up a slippery slope argument but it's so obvious that it makes itself.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  This is definitely not it
  - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
    It unironically and simply is it, albeit on hold for civilizations morally paralyzed by the trauma of WW2.
- binary132 3y ago
  Funny joke! I get it!
dirtybirdnj 3y ago
> I think normalizing sociopathic behaviour is something to be worried about, but I personally don't see that happening anywhere so I am unsure what your point is. The normalization of sociopathic behavior is pretty clear to see in politics and celebrity culture. If you don't see it you have had your eyes willfully closed to it for 10+ yrs. Maybe you have or are currently engaged in some of these behaviors and you "can't see" them because it would damage your ego's view of yourself as a good person who deserves the success they have experienced. > Shunning those people from society seems like not an option to me, they are people after all This is effectively what happens to the victims of the sociopaths. They are driven out from the margins. The way I read this is "sociopaths can do whatever they want, but when others complain they are the problem". I cannot stress how wrong that last statement is. So much suffering and therapy to recover from people who behaved this way. People at the top. Bosses. Managers. People who were supposed to be looking out for the group and were not.

h2odragon 3y ago

So what would you tell a "smart sociopath" to do? Someone who wants to live and pursue their own happiness without diminishing that of others? Should they just cease to exist? Retreat somewhere they can't hurt others and live apart from society because society has no place for their disability? Or is it possible to fit in and be useful even if you're neuro divergent?

AndrewKemendo 3y ago
I genuinely don’t know because there’s no rehabilitation structure that the medical system has identified as useful Low IQ sociopaths are typically institutionalized or are homeless of some sort High IQ sociopaths tend to be managers or intermediaries that do not break laws but exploit social graciousness and live in the minutae or vagaries So my answer is: get them out of your org or life as quickly as possible and don’t look back. I’m trying to create a world where acting like a narcissist is effectively impossible - the world we have created promotes narcissistic behavior
- h2odragon 3y ago
  And if it is my life? I've got a lonely mountain in the woods, way out with few neighbors. me and my hounds can hunt and not bother nobody. I find it difficult for numerous reasons to interact with people in social situations, not least being that people smell tasty. My awareness of this fact is something that people pick up on. it snowballs. It'd be nice if I could contribute to society but there's not that many ways I've found, and i've mostly given up trying. now i settle for Socratic snark.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    Fully embracing of one’s truest self is arguably enlightenment
    - jdmn73 3y ago
      Maybe don't encourage the person that says people smell tasty to do that

haswell 3y ago

> This isn’t a disability, sociopathy is a self-propelled toxic character trait, typically resulting from deep childhood trauma that our society rewards structurally I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make here. If this is a result of deep childhood trauma, in what way is it self propelled? > Mostly we just need to identify and isolate people with ASPD as quickly as possible. This seems pretty horrific to me. Assuming ASPD exists on a spectrum, and assuming it’s possible to treat it or at least manage it, it seems like the absolute worst option is to isolate people, the realities of which would almost certainly mean grouping people with these traits together. Furthermore, if indeed trauma is the cause, it seems even more horrific to categorically discard people who have undergone this kind of hardship through no fault of their own. I’m not saying people who cause harm to others should get a free pass. But what you’re describing seems untenable from a moral/ethical standpoint, to say nothing of the practical implications.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago
I’d make a strong argument that the vast majority of the world’s ills are a result of narcissists being in charge of most of the organizations worldwide You seem to have in mind some poor beaten down person struggling to survive Instead these are the people I’m talking about: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/13/tim-gurner-unemployment/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/13/tim-gurner-u... Basically every banker, vc, public company CEO, dictatorial district manager, slave driving dispatcher, cold calling scammer etc….
- haswell 3y ago
  Clearly there are people who cause harm. That is not what I'm reacting to. I'm pushing against the ideas that: 1. This is somehow "self-directed" (which again makes no sense in the context of acknowledging childhood trauma) 2. Every manifestation of this trait leads to great harm (leaving no room for a spectrum or treatment/management) 3. We should "identify and isolate" people with this trait What does 3 even entail in your mind? How would this play out practically speaking?
  - 3y ago

idiotsecant 3y ago

some of the biggest names in history were almost certainly sociopaths. And they were sometimes quite a positive net force. Just about everyone can be put to productive use in the right place, i'm not sure we need to isolate (?) anyone.

dirtybirdnj 3y ago
I agree that people should be given the opportunity for their natural gifts being used effectively. I do NOT think "I'm a sociopath, sorry that doesn't bother me" is ever an acceptable resolution to the damage, pain and suffering they cause. If you help 100 but you have to destroy 5 to get there, was it worth it? I do not think people deserve the benefit of the doubt to make this ethical call. The problem with sociopaths is they HAVE NO ETHICS OR MORALS. You cannot "teach them to feel"... it's like trying to teach a starfish to speak. The only thing you can do is give them negative consequences to their actions. If their actions worked in the past they will repeat them. If those are negative behaviors, they don't see / care that they had to "step on some toes this time".... it simply becomes that toe stepping is now a normal point along an ever-escalating path of social violence and disregard for others. The whole "we can't pathologies it because the sociopath doesn't think they have a problem" point is the main issue for me. If someone was smoking in an enclosed room... and others asked them to stop it would be cut and dry. But because the person is being socially manipulative instead of breathing toxic carcinogens it's acceptable? Bad words ok, bad oxygen BAD! Why is this so hard to understand that the bad social behavior is JUST AS TOXIC. I completely reject this. Socially manipulative behavior is wrong and destructive. I don't care how bad your childhood was your sociopathic manipulation is not justified in any way.
- sociopath-2024 3y ago
  sometimes (maybe even most of the time) socially manipulative behavior is destructive. but surely not all the time. for example, it might enable you to build a world leading ai company
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago

dirtybirdnj 3y ago

> This isn’t a disability, sociopathy is a self-propelled toxic character trait, typically resulting from deep childhood trauma that our society rewards structurally. > Mostly we just need to identify and isolate people with ASPD as quickly as possible. I find this interesting as it relates to the autism spectrum... there is pretty universal resistance to accommodating / understanding the difficulties people face. It seems like a really uphill battle to get people who benefit from their toxicity to voluntarily take a "more difficult" route than they otherwise can. I suggest that we don't need to do anything with the APSD folks, what we need to do is normalize the idea that their behavior is abusive and support folks who are structurally disadvantaged via their behaviors. If enough of regular society gets tired of their shit they will take corrective action... until their behavior "looks bad" to others they have no incentive to cooperate.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago
Fully concur and I think you describe better what I mean by isolate The idea of isolating those people is that we actively reject abusive narcissistic behavior with no qualifications. That means it’s a one strike you’re out rule socially for toxic behavior
- dirtybirdnj 3y ago
  > actively reject abusive narcissistic behavior with no qualifications. There is an inherently difficult task in this. To combat manipulators, we must ourselves engage in manipulation of others whether we like it or not. Depending on how skillful the ASPD person is, trying to call them out on their behavior may actually simply be "outing" yourself to a group that has no interest in hearing what your saying. This can be INCREDIBLY stressful in work or school settings where removing yourself from the social situation is impossible. Eventually the only way to "win" is to walk away, and in doing so at times cut yourself off from social groups. This just allows the ASPD person to tar your name and further manipulate others to isolate you. "Living your best life is the best revenge" yeah sure but it's hard to do this with less of a social group... it doesn't feel good to lose friends even if the reason you are "losing" them is a choice to not tolerate their behavior. I said this in another post, but the real challenge is convincing general society that the awful behavior of psychopaths and sociopaths is in fact bad. That not having or even making an attempt to practice empathy does in fact make you a bad person. The cheerleaders of the sociopaths have been duped, manipulated and controlled into submission by people who have no regard for their wellbeing. In my experience most people are unable to accept this reality. The ones who at least can accept part of it, or agree and have seen the unfairness are the type of people NT or ND that are worth interacting with and need to be seen as advocates and beacons of hope.