4 ms·

Proven, IMHO, by the ease with which many atheists have fallen into alternative faith-based belief systems. 21st century America is increasingly atheist, but no

by jl6 3y ago

Proven, IMHO, by the ease with which many atheists have fallen into alternative faith-based belief systems. 21st century America is increasingly atheist, but no less religious.

anthk 3y ago
That happened in Europe from the 60's. A lot of people replaced Christianism with Horoscopes, which is a similar irrational bullshit to feel yourself better. Or buying lottery tickets depending on where they bought it, as if the place were magical or so.
- pantalaimon 3y ago
  Magical Thinking is way older than that and may well be the source for many religions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking
  - ecoquant 3y ago
    [flagged]
- mbivert 3y ago
  It's deeper than that: the vast majority of people believe in science in the exact same way as the used to believe in Christianism. Try asking around for bulletproof proofs of the Earth's roundness. Or communicating the idea that time and space aren't really distinct entities. Side note, but horoscopes aren't fully to be thrown away[0]. IIRC the main idea was that the month of birth is/was related to seasonal human activities, or illnesses seasonality, which would have a tendency to affect newborns/newborns-to-be strongly. [0]: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.041431898 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.041431898
  - emblaegh 3y ago
    > It's deeper than that: the vast majority of people believe in science in the exact same way as the used to believe in Christianism. Try asking around for bulletproof proofs of the Earth's roundness. Or communicating the idea that time and space aren't really distinct entities. I'm not so sure. The common person definitely cannot give scientific explanations for most things, but between modern medicine, computers and all else, society is drowning in very hard proof that science is an effective and worthwhile endeavour, in a way that i don't think most religion is. Though admittedly that does not seem to completely stop people form breaking away from science the same way as they break away from religion (see flat earthers).
    - mbivert 3y ago
      I think religions played a too often underestimated positive role in past societies, and I say that I someone who isn't particularly fond of what I would call the "religious mentality". For example in Buddhism there's the notion of karma: if you do something bad/good, you'll meet bad/good things in return. Now, there's the "fantasist" interpretation, with reincarnation & cie, but there's also a pragmatic approach: if you keep doing bad things, people will want to get back at you, you'll get a bad reputation, and others won't want to deal with you anymore. Or, frowning upon sodomy, considering that feces are a transmission route[0] for many common infections. Same thing with advanced promiscuity and STDs. Or the importance of sturdy couples (marriages, Confucianism) for kids's well-being (see e.g.[1]). What I mean to say is that, we may have a very hard proof that religions were effective to help societies, at least to persist. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal%E2%80%93oral_route https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal%E2%80%93oral_route [1]: https://ifstudies.org/blog/children-first-why-family-structure-and-stability-matter-for-children https://ifstudies.org/blog/children-first-why-family-structu...
      - seszett 3y ago
        > Or, frowning upon sodomy, considering that feces are a transmission route[0] for many common infections. Same thing with advanced promiscuity and STDs. Or the importance of sturdy couples (marriages, Confucianism) for kids's well-being (see e.g.[1]). But all these things can be explained and understood rationally without the need for a divine book forbidding things for frivolous reasons (or at best, without any stated reason). Basically, people don't really need a bible to know that poop is dirty (a parent or a doctor can explain it just fine) but when the bible explains that one shouldn't put one's penis in another's anus (does it actually say it, or does it just vaguely talk about an ill-defined action called "sodomy"?) it doesn't give valid reasons. So in the end, while religions do have a positive role on some aspects, they also encourage thoughtless actions or even actively discourage rational thought because of gaps that shouldn't be questioned, or outright inconsistencies.
- bazoom42 3y ago
  I dont think people into astrology would call themselves atheists. They would probabably identify as “spiritual”. “Atheist religion” is more like NPL, scientology, UFO cults, The Singularity, simulation universe etc.
FrankyHollywood 3y ago
Indeed, I was never aware of it, until Covid... millions of people believing in nano-bots raining from the clouds programmed by Bill Gates and many other unbelievable far fetched idea's, people just believed it like it was common knowledge. And the false believes have far reaching impact, like polarization in society and deaths. Just today I read that Dutch vaccination rates are lower than ever [1]. Diseases like polio are no longer a 3rd world problem, but could revive in Europe as well. [1] https://nos-nl.translate.goog/artikel/2512681-vaccinatiegraad-onder-kinderen-in-den-haag-nog-nooit-zo-gevaarlijk-laag?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true https://nos-nl.translate.goog/artikel/2512681-vaccinatiegraa...
- agumonkey 3y ago
  I experienced and saw it with the crypto bubble too. It was near guru level of mania and belief. Very telling.
  - horrysith 3y ago
    [dead]
genman 3y ago
Not proven, but illustrated, in number of cases.

by jl6 3y ago

Proven, IMHO, by the ease with which many atheists have fallen into alternative faith-based belief systems. 21st century America is increasingly atheist, but no less religious.

anthk 3y ago

That happened in Europe from the 60's. A lot of people replaced Christianism with Horoscopes, which is a similar irrational bullshit to feel yourself better. Or buying lottery tickets depending on where they bought it, as if the place were magical or so.

pantalaimon 3y ago
Magical Thinking is way older than that and may well be the source for many religions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking
- ecoquant 3y ago
  [flagged]
mbivert 3y ago
It's deeper than that: the vast majority of people believe in science in the exact same way as the used to believe in Christianism. Try asking around for bulletproof proofs of the Earth's roundness. Or communicating the idea that time and space aren't really distinct entities. Side note, but horoscopes aren't fully to be thrown away[0]. IIRC the main idea was that the month of birth is/was related to seasonal human activities, or illnesses seasonality, which would have a tendency to affect newborns/newborns-to-be strongly. [0]: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.041431898 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.041431898
- emblaegh 3y ago
  > It's deeper than that: the vast majority of people believe in science in the exact same way as the used to believe in Christianism. Try asking around for bulletproof proofs of the Earth's roundness. Or communicating the idea that time and space aren't really distinct entities. I'm not so sure. The common person definitely cannot give scientific explanations for most things, but between modern medicine, computers and all else, society is drowning in very hard proof that science is an effective and worthwhile endeavour, in a way that i don't think most religion is. Though admittedly that does not seem to completely stop people form breaking away from science the same way as they break away from religion (see flat earthers).
  - mbivert 3y ago
    I think religions played a too often underestimated positive role in past societies, and I say that I someone who isn't particularly fond of what I would call the "religious mentality". For example in Buddhism there's the notion of karma: if you do something bad/good, you'll meet bad/good things in return. Now, there's the "fantasist" interpretation, with reincarnation & cie, but there's also a pragmatic approach: if you keep doing bad things, people will want to get back at you, you'll get a bad reputation, and others won't want to deal with you anymore. Or, frowning upon sodomy, considering that feces are a transmission route[0] for many common infections. Same thing with advanced promiscuity and STDs. Or the importance of sturdy couples (marriages, Confucianism) for kids's well-being (see e.g.[1]). What I mean to say is that, we may have a very hard proof that religions were effective to help societies, at least to persist. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal%E2%80%93oral_route https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal%E2%80%93oral_route [1]: https://ifstudies.org/blog/children-first-why-family-structure-and-stability-matter-for-children https://ifstudies.org/blog/children-first-why-family-structu...
    - seszett 3y ago
      > Or, frowning upon sodomy, considering that feces are a transmission route[0] for many common infections. Same thing with advanced promiscuity and STDs. Or the importance of sturdy couples (marriages, Confucianism) for kids's well-being (see e.g.[1]). But all these things can be explained and understood rationally without the need for a divine book forbidding things for frivolous reasons (or at best, without any stated reason). Basically, people don't really need a bible to know that poop is dirty (a parent or a doctor can explain it just fine) but when the bible explains that one shouldn't put one's penis in another's anus (does it actually say it, or does it just vaguely talk about an ill-defined action called "sodomy"?) it doesn't give valid reasons. So in the end, while religions do have a positive role on some aspects, they also encourage thoughtless actions or even actively discourage rational thought because of gaps that shouldn't be questioned, or outright inconsistencies.
bazoom42 3y ago
I dont think people into astrology would call themselves atheists. They would probabably identify as “spiritual”. “Atheist religion” is more like NPL, scientology, UFO cults, The Singularity, simulation universe etc.

FrankyHollywood 3y ago

Indeed, I was never aware of it, until Covid... millions of people believing in nano-bots raining from the clouds programmed by Bill Gates and many other unbelievable far fetched idea's, people just believed it like it was common knowledge. And the false believes have far reaching impact, like polarization in society and deaths. Just today I read that Dutch vaccination rates are lower than ever [1]. Diseases like polio are no longer a 3rd world problem, but could revive in Europe as well. [1] https://nos-nl.translate.goog/artikel/2512681-vaccinatiegraad-onder-kinderen-in-den-haag-nog-nooit-zo-gevaarlijk-laag?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true https://nos-nl.translate.goog/artikel/2512681-vaccinatiegraa...

agumonkey 3y ago
I experienced and saw it with the crypto bubble too. It was near guru level of mania and belief. Very telling.
- horrysith 3y ago
  [dead]

genman 3y ago

Not proven, but illustrated, in number of cases.