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The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

103 points by antonellis 14y ago

mahmud 14y ago
(If you were confused why the "Most X" column is not the same as "Least X" but in reverse order, it's because the list is not exhaustive.)
louischatriot 14y ago
Unfortunately, as long as Greek companies don't pay taxes, Greeks can work as hard as they can the situation will continue to deteriorate.
- patrickk 14y ago
  Not sure why you were downvoted, widespread tax evasion in Greece is certainly a contributing factor for the trouble they're in. You can build an apartment building, have an 'uncompleted' top floor, and therefore pay no tax on the building. http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010 http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-b...
kamaal 14y ago
Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today. It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on. The anchor did explain that it wasn't just weak institutions and bad government policies. It was reckless lifestyle spending on part of Greeks. It seems many Greeks now want to sell of their costly cars, which are now believed to sell for less than half the price they bought it. So what happens? If they are unable to pay the loans and Bank take the cars. Banks still get only ~50% of what they lent. Its step by step collapse of a whole system. In many ways, the institutions, like Banks are responsible too, for lending out money like that- unchecked. But the whole system is to be blamed. People, Government and everybody else involved. On the other hand they also showed, Germany and how they manage their economy. Now lets look at it, Greeks might work harder than Germans. That is no indication of why Greece is such crisis today. Apart from working and earning you also need to manage your money well. Why spend more than what you can earn? Also scenes in Greece were heart warming, difficult to believe its 21st century Europe. Its almost like a third world country. People begging on streets, sleeping on footpaths, Eating from what is distributed. Couples relying on free clinics for minimal healthcare. As I said, only the Infrastructure looked grand. Otherwise it looked like a third world country.
- arethuza 14y ago
  "Its almost like a third world country" If it looks like a third world country, then where did all the money go? Presumably the majority of people aren't driving around in Porsches?
  - jussij 14y ago
    > where did all the money go They spent the money. It's no difference to running up a big credit card debt, but at some point you have to pay it back. What went wrong for Greece was it maxed out it's government credit card and none of the banks would let them up their credit limit. Now the goverment doesn't have a lot of money comming in but it still has a massive debt. That debt has to be payed back or else they have to default (i.e. go bankrupt).
    - arethuza 14y ago
      Well, for sake of argument, if it all went on buying Porsches and Mercedes then it's pretty easy to tell where the money went....
      - kamaal 14y ago
        Right, It went to Germany. But you can't hold them responsible for this mess. Germany is a export based country, they are also more productive than the Greeks. They have managed their money well. The only thing is that the Euro facilitated such things more easily. But Germany can't be blamed for it. Imagine you go to a supermarket and buy like crazy. You know you don't have a way of paying it back, but you keep buying. Soon you run out of your credit limit of buying more. Soon you are in a situation where you owe the bank a lot of money and have no money of retuning it back. Who is to be blamed, can you blame the supermarket for selling stuff? Or the bank for lending you money? Or you for not knowing when to stop?
        arethuza 14y ago
        Personally, I would give the majority of the blame to the banks (say 60%) and the rest to the borrower. The reason for this is that, in my experience, banks have got a lot less careful about who they lend money to (at least when it comes to personal lending).
MrKurtHaeusler 14y ago
Well obviously they should work less then. Most people I know who spend less time working tend to enjoy life more, look better, have more money and live longer. Oh and they are more austere.
holri 14y ago
It does not matter how long you work. What matters is what you get done in a week.
- cmdkeen 14y ago
  This. The far more important column is the second one about Productivity. And Germany leads the way there with no mention for Greece. Working more hours to produce the same thing is bad, not good.
  - tluyben2 14y ago
    Leads the way? Belgium and the Netherlands are higher. In that table (where did they get those numbers) I would say Norway + Netherlands 'win'; least hours, most productive. For me as a programmer that's exactly how it should be.
- kristofferR 14y ago
  Yeah, there may actually be an inverse correlation between the length of work and productivity. It seems that way according to the chart at least.
beloch 14y ago
Greece could be the most productive country in the EU and their government would still be in dire straits. Tax evasion is endemic. It doesn't matter how much people are making if almost nobody is paying their taxes. The Greek government has started cracking down, but Greek disrespect for taxation has been building for generations and won't die easily.
- zerostar07 14y ago
  It was (and mostly still is) so easy to avoid taxes in Greece that it's fair to say the burden is on the government more than the people. I believe it's difficult to make people tax-conscious when they see that it's so easy for everyone around them to steal. The tax authorities here are corrupt, underqualified, and have a very low rate of tax collection. It's so bad that it had better be replaced altogether.
  - varjag 14y ago
    Greece is a democracy. The government is representative of its people.
    - zanny 14y ago
      Is the US a democracy by the same standards? Saying you have a democracy does not make it so, the actions of a government acting out the will of its people makes it so.
      - varjag 14y ago
        The perfect democracy achieving the will of all voters is not achievable, as different groups may promote conflicting policies. There are however parts that are consistent with all populace, and as the cabinets change you definitely can see what they do have in common. Greek politicians are Greek people too, with same cultural background and overall attitudes prevailing in the society. Ditto for Greek government employees (a huge sector of their economy), who are there to enforce the regulations. If there is a culture of tax evasion, you can't expect the government to fix it just because there is a tax code in the writing. People's attitude have to change.
dasil003 14y ago
Why is there no mention of taxes here? Isn't the single biggest factor that the Greek tax system is corrupt from the ground up?
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
zerostar07 14y ago
That number is (more than) a bit misleading. I don't know where OECD pulls those numbers but it certainly doesn't feel as if Greeks work more than the average european. Shops dont work on sundays, public services are open for only a few hours a day, banks close at 2 etc. Underproductivity is a major issue, most of the work of public services is unnecessary red tape that could be easily automated if the government was willing. Work hours is not our major problem, it's work ethics that are lacking. Hard work is not compensated, it is in fact frowned upon in the public sector, and this situation has even infiltrated much of the private sector. Absurd regulation and governmental dependencies has stifled competition in all but a few sectors (where it works it works reasonably well, such as telecommunications or banking). Couple that with a hostile investing environment and you have the perfect recipe for disaster. That said, Greeks in general are industrious and entrepreneurial, but we tend to channel our inventiveness on finding ways to avoid paying taxes. Personally i believed from the start that Greece should have exited the euro in order to revitalize its dormant economy.
- Heliosmaster 14y ago
  Are you sure? Because I find shops open from early morning till late night: from general goods to restaurants and so on.
  - zerostar07 14y ago
    What about everything else? Are gas stations open on sundays? Pharmacies in the afternoon? Are government offices open after 13:00?
    - Luyt 14y ago
      The government closes down after 13:00 for the whole afternoon? Or only for a siesta?
      - zerostar07 14y ago
        most administrative services close at 13:00 for the public. Still, the greater issue is not the hours worked, it's the fact that it's unacceptably slow. For example, most accounting offices employ people whose job is to wait in queues outside government offices all day (such as tax and social security offices).
Irishsteve 14y ago
Time spent in work is not time spent working. All my greek buddies have a easy gong day. They are in work a number of hours, but how productive those hours are who knows.
amueller 14y ago
Fun thing that this article doesn't mention: in Germany it is very, very common to work extra hours that are not paid and not in the books. This is particularly true for high profile jobs.
- skore 14y ago
  That highly depends on what line of business we are talking about. In some "new" jobs like Design or even Programming it may be true. But the meat of the German Economy - the part that is highly influenced by unions - is far away from that. I would assume that, writing this on Hacker News, you are probably in the former line of work and don't see that it's very different for average folks.
- kahawe 14y ago
  > in Germany it is very, very common to work extra hours that are not paid and not in the books I am working in Germany and what are you talking about? More specifically which industry? The employment laws here are so ridiculously pro-employee that I basically need to "excuse" and justify myself if I was to work more than X hours a week. And typically, at least in IT, a certain amount of overtime (or a "flat charge") is in your contract and you get more salary for that - more than the so called "collective agreement" requires your employer to pay you. So for most people in regular jobs, I doubt this holds true. Maybe small IT startups try to squeeze the youngens by circumventing all laws and regulations? At least where I am working, typical German bigger but not huge company, you can set your clock by how punctual they show up to and especially leave work; shortly after 5pm they can start cleaning here because that's when practically the whole building is empty except for some poor souls like me. "High profile", executive level jobs are different, that is true but this is to be expected at that level and pay rate and I doubt you will find any other country where this doesn't hold true.
  - fforw 14y ago
    I think it's more common with larger companies and the corresponding 9-to-5 attitude. I work for as architect for a small consultancy/software-development company and I'm paid the same salary no matter how many hours I actually work. Contract says 40 h/week, but there are weeks when I reach the 40 on wednesday. MIght be able to work less than 40 hours when times are not as stressful (haha), but the average has to be clearly above 40 h/week.
twelvechairs 14y ago
This is not a very relevant statistic. Note for instance the semi-slave factory workers of Asia who on average would work much harder and longer hours than either of these two groups, but end up with much less money and a worse lifestyle. Now why is that? (and how can I fit it within my pre-existing ideological bias?)
anton_c 14y ago
It's very easy to blame simple people for the mess that capitalism created. "They spent a lot". Really? Who's to say? Did you ever wonder how much is spend on high tech weapons by your government? Do you KNOW what YOUR country's public debt is? Are YOU responsible for it (because you're gonna be held accountable for it either way). As easy as it is to buy mainstream media "analysis" it's also just that - mainstream, meaning that it is designed to keep the powers that be from safe from criticism. What happens in Greece is that we're taking loans upon loans to save defaulted banks that are based mainly in Greece, Germany and France. Tax evasion, porsches' and the rest are dirty propaganda designed to hide the crime that's being perpetuated. Saving failed capitalists (mainly banks up to now) by robbing the laymen. As for the tax evasion bit, it's mostly true if we are to speak for a small fraction of the Greek population - namelly the rich and superrich Greeks. All the rest are paying our due for nothing - meaning that our taxes (for me it's about 50% of my gross income) are used to refinance loans and not a single dime goes to roads,health or education. Bear also in mind that for two decades every banks were all over people to persuade them to get loans (sth like the mortgage situation in USA) which were used to buy shit from Germany and France (that's why many say that these countries surplasses are European south deficits). This was evident at a state level too with huge amounts going to buy arms from these two countries. Arms that were of no use. Anyway, this issue is far from simple and what's more you, no matter where you're from, are far from just spectators. What happens in Greece (namely the ripoff of any hind of welfare state + the death of the middle class) is just an experiment to be continued in virtually every western country. It's the way that western capitalism wants to proceed - and bear in mind that what really counts is workers wages (that have been slashed in Greece since the begining of all this crisis) - many big heads waiving their finger have told us Greeks, that the only way to get back to economic development again is to be OK with chinese salaries. We're trying to take that fingers and put them back where they belong and maybe you should try thinking your line of defense against those failed bussinessmen and politicians. A Greek.
- angry-hacker 14y ago
  Okay, but maybe your living of standard is "chinese wages". What I mean by that much lower standard of living. Why should other countries taxpayers because you don't want to accept the reality?
stefanve 14y ago
The hours worked figure is misleading. in The Netherlands, Germany etc workforce participation rate of women are much higher. But because women tent to work mostly part-time, especially if they have kids, average the number is really low. Also a lot of young family's split this time as both parent's work part time to spend time with the kids. A normal work week is about 40 hours so if you take out 6 weeks for vacation days, sick days etc your left with 1840 hours. I think a more interesting number would be average work time per household I suspect that the list would look differently.
_k 14y ago
We're led to believe the solution to this economic crisis is either getting deeper in debt or more austerity measures (higher taxes, less subsidies) We're led to believe it's either A or B. It's neither A or B for most countries. The truth of the matter is that it's a political problem. We have to reduce the size of the government.
- novalis 14y ago
  ... and jail the corrupt people that hold public office yet act against the citizens in any way. Until that moment in time, nothing good will come out of this and the status quo will just keep on rolling and smashing everyone in its way.
TelmoMenezes 14y ago
I don't know about Greece, but I grew up in Portugal, and I suspect there are some similarities. People in Portugal "work" long hours. But they also work in a very infective way: long useless meetings, everything requires lengthy social interactions, bizantine bureaucracy, too many managers for too few real workers and so on. There are complex cultural problems that cannot be expressed by such simplistic metrics (and that, unfortunately, cannot be solved with quick fixes).
- phatbyte 14y ago
  As a portuguese also, I totally subscribe this. Hence the reason I don't work in/for Portugal anymore, and I won't until this mentality is gone for good.
- iaskwhy 14y ago
  I'm also from Portugal but I have been working in London for some time now. Curiously, I don't see much of a difference besides now working only from 9 to 6 instead of working from 9 to 10. Same useless meetings, a very long line for coffee all day long, everyone is a manager, etc. My opinion is a simple one: some countries sell stuff others want, some don't. We were just unlucky and not smart enough to value our geographical position in the world.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
    - webnographer 14y ago
      German manufacturing is where German productivity is high, not in services.
  - webnographer 14y ago
    I have seen many greetideas come from Portugal, the challange is getting the ideas out of the door.You can read here about the start up scene in Lisbon http://squaxor.posterous.com/lisbon-the-startup-spirit http://squaxor.posterous.com/lisbon-the-startup-spirit
kahawe 14y ago
One thing that I always find very unsettling when reading things like that: how Germany is somehow always an epitome of efficiency and productiveness. I am working here and I absolutely do NOT perceive it like that and friends who are also working here confirmed that impression. We are constantly swapping horror-stories of stupid bureaucracy, lengthy extremely bloated processes, having to do things five times, lazy people, stupid people, people who have no idea about their job and no education, tons of stupid "office wars/games" going on, lengthy discussions about very petty things and just for the sake of "but I was actually right" and so on and so forth... The only conclusion is then, it is much much MUCH worse elsewhere? Really?? (Or is this just some sort of "halo effect"?)
f4stjack 14y ago
I don't know about Greece but the statistics in the page are quite disturbing to read. You do long work hours to be more productive, but in the end (probably it has more factors than that but I am simplifying it) it doesn't do you any good so you do overtime, which damages your productivity even more... This is the most damned vicious cycle I've ever seen I think...
vetler 14y ago
Very interesting to see that Norway is the 2nd most productive, but ranks 3rd in fewest hours worked! Makes me feel good about leaving work at four. ;)
- gizzlon 14y ago
  But what is that number anyway? It's probably just GNP / people. ? Norway will look good in that respect due to the oil.
  - vetler 14y ago
    Doesn't say, unfortunately. "They are collected by individual national statistics authorities who each have their own methods of collecting and collating information."
- swah 14y ago
  OTOH I rather have a flexible work schedule than a strict-but-short one ("you always have to get here at 8 and leave at 4").
  - vetler 14y ago
    Oh, we have that too. Just because I chose to get in at 8 this morning, doesn't mean I have to. YMMV, of course, but flexible hours are the norm in the IT industry.
elorant 14y ago
As a Greek I have to admit that this number tells half the truth. The other half is that in terms of productivity Greece is very low. So while we may work a lot more than the average German the quality of the products/services we provide is significantly worse.
nailer 14y ago
As well as the issues other posters have mentioned, the HN title (though not the article) is misleading as the Greek retirement age was 55 until recently. Working 40% longer hours each week, but cutting a decade off your career, does not mean you work 40% longer.
Tichy 14y ago
I heard some of them even hold two full time jobs at the same time, receiving double salary. And that is in government employment, one of the most stressful jobs available in Greece.
aoprisan 14y ago
There is a difference between "working" and working.. "working" in a highly inefficient system is very different than working fewer hours in a more efficient system
balajiviswanath 14y ago
As the 4 columns show, productivity & hours worked go diametrically opposite (negatively correlated). All the countries in the most working list are also in the least productive list. So, it still doesn't change the German assertion that Greeks are not doing enough. Second, the article itself accepts - " because the two labour markets are structured differently, it is actually hard to compare like with like." That means the headline is pointless as it is contradicted by the sentence above.
ck2 14y ago
As I understand it, Greece's problem is the wealthy completely dodge taxes, putting the burden on everyone else (or collapsing the government). It's an idealized version of America's wealthy dream-state.
Uchikoma 14y ago
I'm biased, I'm German. But last year I think there was an article linked that explained how Germans have more productivity output per year than US Americans, although Germans have more holidays. Said that, it's obviously a generalization. I'd think it's very company specific, and depends on many factors, especially the number of "meetings" one has to attend, those that are not work because they have no agenda, no action items, no decisions made etc.
Produce 14y ago
I am not surprised that the most hard working populations are the most unproductive. The mythical man-hour doesn't just apply to software.
JumpCrisscross 14y ago
Facts that reconcile this article with what we already know: 1. The Greek labour market is inefficient. That is why so many people work in small (inefficient) shops. Closed shop regulation for many professions lock people out of high wage occupations. Next to Portugal's 28% high school graduation rate [1] Greece's recent progress (<50% of 25-64 year olds completing high school in 1997 versus 61% today [2]) is valiant but the leaves an uneducated, unproductive generation untouched. It also doesn't account for Greeks' shorter working years. 2. Doing business is tough. Here is an anecdote from a financial commentator in Athens: "My friend explained that the owner of the bookstore/café couldn’t get a license to provide coffee. She had tried to just buy a coffee machine and give the coffee away for free, thinking that lingering patrons would boost book sales. However, giving away coffee was illegal as well. Instead, the owner had to strike a deal with a bar across the street, whereby they make the coffee and the waitress spends all day shuttling between the bar and the bookstore/café. My friend also explained to me that books could not be purchased at the bookstore, as it was after 18h and it is illegal to sell books in Greece beyond that hour. I was in a bookstore/café that could neither sell books nor make coffee." [3] 3. The government used cheap loans not for infrastructure or reform, but to pay public servants and build a military. 4. The government lied about its finances and is depravedly corrupt. [1] http://m.upi.com/m/story/UPI-16361301069117/ http://m.upi.com/m/story/UPI-16361301069117/ [2] http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/21/48657344.pdf http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/21/48657344.pdf [3] http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/36085/ http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/36085/
- ctdonath 14y ago
  "books could not be purchased at the bookstore, as it was after 18h and it is illegal to sell books in Greece beyond that hour. I was in a bookstore/café that could neither sell books nor make coffee." Unreal. Note that it wasn't that the store was somehow incompetent, it's that doing something as simple & normal as selling a book after 6PM is illegal. Giving away brewed-in-house coffee is illegal. I'm having trouble articulating how profoundly outrageous this is, how self-destructive a country is which not only enacts such regulations but, it seems, tolerates it. If mere sale of a book is prohibited during any hours (much less perfectly reasonable & normal hours), outsiders will find it hard to extend sympathy and aid to a country so keen on destroying its own economy via absurd legislation and citizens so willing to comply. I'm glad to help the needy, but that stops quick when the recipient won't quit obviously self-destructive behavior.
forgotAgain 14y ago
This article would be much more beneficial if it went beyond pointing out inaccuracies in common beliefs, and explained where they came from. As given it simply regurgitates self reported government statistics and provides no insight.
conformal 14y ago
working longer hours != working more or harder. much of the financial problems in .gr (and .it) have occurred because many citizens do not declare the bulk of their income, then, lo and behold, there is insufficient tax revenue to pay for the myriad government services. there are more porsche cayennes in .gr than there are people who declared over EUR 50K income in 2010. based on the fact that .gr has essentially committed long-term fraud with their financials i put absolutely zero stock in any claim that "they're working harder than germany". sure, there are some greeks who work really hard and are productive, but if you've spent any decent amount of time in other countries that border the mediterranean sea you'll notice that their definition of "work" is very different from most people from a less pleasant climate.
- dagw 14y ago
  there are more porsche cayennes in .gr than there are people who declared over EUR 50K income in 2010 That 'fact' is not only completely untrue, but utterly ridiculous and off by several orders of magnitude. There where over 300000 people declaring of EUR 50k in income in 2010, while Porsche has sold 1500 Cayennes in Greece since launch.
JoachimSchipper 14y ago
Flagged for politics.
jakeonthemove 14y ago
Germans are known for their efficiency, not hard work. Besides, a rested worker is more productive than an overworked one. Germany has got it right. Also, starting a business in Germany is much easier than in Greece - it's on par with the US and UK, while Greece is more restrictive for some reason...
- Uchikoma 14y ago
  But only recently. It was a nightmare founding a limited 10 years ago (GmbH) when I founded a startup, it's quite easy today when my wife founded a startup (UG). Many Germans founded Ltds in Britain on paper, that made the government see the need to change some laws.
woodpanel 14y ago
When we talk about the shortcomings of Greece we should not forget that Greece was under military dictatorship up until the middle of the 70's (as were Spain and Portugal). And there were several terrorist bombings afterwards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_November http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_N... just to name one of many groups). As a German I'm getting tired of painting the Greeks as lazy. It's rather their country that's in a mess.
junto 14y ago
Greece's problems are predominantly due to state debt, caused by: 1) State Fraud and Corruption: "In early 2010, it was revealed that successive Greek governments had been found to have consistently and deliberately misreported the country's official economic statistics to keep within the monetary union guidelines." 2) Public Tax Evasion: "Greece suffers from very high levels of tax evasion. In the last quarter of 2005, tax evasion reached 49%,[142] while in January 2006 it fell to 41.6%.[142] The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece My personal opinion is that I really don't see why the rest of Europe should bail the Greeks out. They should be booted out of the Euro. > "The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German" Amount of time worked != productivity.
gruseom 14y ago
We keep hearing about the lazy Greeks being bailed out, but isn't it really the banks who lent too much money to Greece who are being bailed out? If the Greeks are so lazy and corrupt, then it was foolish to lend them so much. Why should laziness be punished while foolishness is rewarded? Which poses the greater systemic threat?

103 points by antonellis 14y ago

(If you were confused why the "Most X" column is not the same as "Least X" but in reverse order, it's because the list is not exhaustive.)

louischatriot 14y ago

Unfortunately, as long as Greek companies don't pay taxes, Greeks can work as hard as they can the situation will continue to deteriorate.

patrickk 14y ago
Not sure why you were downvoted, widespread tax evasion in Greece is certainly a contributing factor for the trouble they're in. You can build an apartment building, have an 'uncompleted' top floor, and therefore pay no tax on the building. http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010 http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-b...

kamaal 14y ago

Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today. It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on. The anchor did explain that it wasn't just weak institutions and bad government policies. It was reckless lifestyle spending on part of Greeks. It seems many Greeks now want to sell of their costly cars, which are now believed to sell for less than half the price they bought it. So what happens? If they are unable to pay the loans and Bank take the cars. Banks still get only ~50% of what they lent. Its step by step collapse of a whole system. In many ways, the institutions, like Banks are responsible too, for lending out money like that- unchecked. But the whole system is to be blamed. People, Government and everybody else involved. On the other hand they also showed, Germany and how they manage their economy. Now lets look at it, Greeks might work harder than Germans. That is no indication of why Greece is such crisis today. Apart from working and earning you also need to manage your money well. Why spend more than what you can earn? Also scenes in Greece were heart warming, difficult to believe its 21st century Europe. Its almost like a third world country. People begging on streets, sleeping on footpaths, Eating from what is distributed. Couples relying on free clinics for minimal healthcare. As I said, only the Infrastructure looked grand. Otherwise it looked like a third world country.

arethuza 14y ago
"Its almost like a third world country" If it looks like a third world country, then where did all the money go? Presumably the majority of people aren't driving around in Porsches?
- jussij 14y ago
  > where did all the money go They spent the money. It's no difference to running up a big credit card debt, but at some point you have to pay it back. What went wrong for Greece was it maxed out it's government credit card and none of the banks would let them up their credit limit. Now the goverment doesn't have a lot of money comming in but it still has a massive debt. That debt has to be payed back or else they have to default (i.e. go bankrupt).
  - arethuza 14y ago
    Well, for sake of argument, if it all went on buying Porsches and Mercedes then it's pretty easy to tell where the money went....
    - kamaal 14y ago
      Right, It went to Germany. But you can't hold them responsible for this mess. Germany is a export based country, they are also more productive than the Greeks. They have managed their money well. The only thing is that the Euro facilitated such things more easily. But Germany can't be blamed for it. Imagine you go to a supermarket and buy like crazy. You know you don't have a way of paying it back, but you keep buying. Soon you run out of your credit limit of buying more. Soon you are in a situation where you owe the bank a lot of money and have no money of retuning it back. Who is to be blamed, can you blame the supermarket for selling stuff? Or the bank for lending you money? Or you for not knowing when to stop?
      - arethuza 14y ago
        Personally, I would give the majority of the blame to the banks (say 60%) and the rest to the borrower. The reason for this is that, in my experience, banks have got a lot less careful about who they lend money to (at least when it comes to personal lending).

MrKurtHaeusler 14y ago

Well obviously they should work less then. Most people I know who spend less time working tend to enjoy life more, look better, have more money and live longer. Oh and they are more austere.

holri 14y ago

It does not matter how long you work. What matters is what you get done in a week.

cmdkeen 14y ago
This. The far more important column is the second one about Productivity. And Germany leads the way there with no mention for Greece. Working more hours to produce the same thing is bad, not good.
- tluyben2 14y ago
  Leads the way? Belgium and the Netherlands are higher. In that table (where did they get those numbers) I would say Norway + Netherlands 'win'; least hours, most productive. For me as a programmer that's exactly how it should be.
kristofferR 14y ago
Yeah, there may actually be an inverse correlation between the length of work and productivity. It seems that way according to the chart at least.

beloch 14y ago

Greece could be the most productive country in the EU and their government would still be in dire straits. Tax evasion is endemic. It doesn't matter how much people are making if almost nobody is paying their taxes. The Greek government has started cracking down, but Greek disrespect for taxation has been building for generations and won't die easily.

zerostar07 14y ago
It was (and mostly still is) so easy to avoid taxes in Greece that it's fair to say the burden is on the government more than the people. I believe it's difficult to make people tax-conscious when they see that it's so easy for everyone around them to steal. The tax authorities here are corrupt, underqualified, and have a very low rate of tax collection. It's so bad that it had better be replaced altogether.
- varjag 14y ago
  Greece is a democracy. The government is representative of its people.
  - zanny 14y ago
    Is the US a democracy by the same standards? Saying you have a democracy does not make it so, the actions of a government acting out the will of its people makes it so.
    - varjag 14y ago
      The perfect democracy achieving the will of all voters is not achievable, as different groups may promote conflicting policies. There are however parts that are consistent with all populace, and as the cabinets change you definitely can see what they do have in common. Greek politicians are Greek people too, with same cultural background and overall attitudes prevailing in the society. Ditto for Greek government employees (a huge sector of their economy), who are there to enforce the regulations. If there is a culture of tax evasion, you can't expect the government to fix it just because there is a tax code in the writing. People's attitude have to change.

dasil003 14y ago

Why is there no mention of taxes here? Isn't the single biggest factor that the Greek tax system is corrupt from the ground up?

deleted 14y ago

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zerostar07 14y ago

That number is (more than) a bit misleading. I don't know where OECD pulls those numbers but it certainly doesn't feel as if Greeks work more than the average european. Shops dont work on sundays, public services are open for only a few hours a day, banks close at 2 etc. Underproductivity is a major issue, most of the work of public services is unnecessary red tape that could be easily automated if the government was willing. Work hours is not our major problem, it's work ethics that are lacking. Hard work is not compensated, it is in fact frowned upon in the public sector, and this situation has even infiltrated much of the private sector. Absurd regulation and governmental dependencies has stifled competition in all but a few sectors (where it works it works reasonably well, such as telecommunications or banking). Couple that with a hostile investing environment and you have the perfect recipe for disaster. That said, Greeks in general are industrious and entrepreneurial, but we tend to channel our inventiveness on finding ways to avoid paying taxes. Personally i believed from the start that Greece should have exited the euro in order to revitalize its dormant economy.

Heliosmaster 14y ago
Are you sure? Because I find shops open from early morning till late night: from general goods to restaurants and so on.
- zerostar07 14y ago
  What about everything else? Are gas stations open on sundays? Pharmacies in the afternoon? Are government offices open after 13:00?
  - Luyt 14y ago
    The government closes down after 13:00 for the whole afternoon? Or only for a siesta?
    - zerostar07 14y ago
      most administrative services close at 13:00 for the public. Still, the greater issue is not the hours worked, it's the fact that it's unacceptably slow. For example, most accounting offices employ people whose job is to wait in queues outside government offices all day (such as tax and social security offices).

Irishsteve 14y ago

Time spent in work is not time spent working. All my greek buddies have a easy gong day. They are in work a number of hours, but how productive those hours are who knows.

amueller 14y ago

Fun thing that this article doesn't mention: in Germany it is very, very common to work extra hours that are not paid and not in the books. This is particularly true for high profile jobs.

skore 14y ago
That highly depends on what line of business we are talking about. In some "new" jobs like Design or even Programming it may be true. But the meat of the German Economy - the part that is highly influenced by unions - is far away from that. I would assume that, writing this on Hacker News, you are probably in the former line of work and don't see that it's very different for average folks.
kahawe 14y ago
> in Germany it is very, very common to work extra hours that are not paid and not in the books I am working in Germany and what are you talking about? More specifically which industry? The employment laws here are so ridiculously pro-employee that I basically need to "excuse" and justify myself if I was to work more than X hours a week. And typically, at least in IT, a certain amount of overtime (or a "flat charge") is in your contract and you get more salary for that - more than the so called "collective agreement" requires your employer to pay you. So for most people in regular jobs, I doubt this holds true. Maybe small IT startups try to squeeze the youngens by circumventing all laws and regulations? At least where I am working, typical German bigger but not huge company, you can set your clock by how punctual they show up to and especially leave work; shortly after 5pm they can start cleaning here because that's when practically the whole building is empty except for some poor souls like me. "High profile", executive level jobs are different, that is true but this is to be expected at that level and pay rate and I doubt you will find any other country where this doesn't hold true.
- fforw 14y ago
  I think it's more common with larger companies and the corresponding 9-to-5 attitude. I work for as architect for a small consultancy/software-development company and I'm paid the same salary no matter how many hours I actually work. Contract says 40 h/week, but there are weeks when I reach the 40 on wednesday. MIght be able to work less than 40 hours when times are not as stressful (haha), but the average has to be clearly above 40 h/week.

twelvechairs 14y ago

This is not a very relevant statistic. Note for instance the semi-slave factory workers of Asia who on average would work much harder and longer hours than either of these two groups, but end up with much less money and a worse lifestyle. Now why is that? (and how can I fit it within my pre-existing ideological bias?)

anton_c 14y ago

It's very easy to blame simple people for the mess that capitalism created. "They spent a lot". Really? Who's to say? Did you ever wonder how much is spend on high tech weapons by your government? Do you KNOW what YOUR country's public debt is? Are YOU responsible for it (because you're gonna be held accountable for it either way). As easy as it is to buy mainstream media "analysis" it's also just that - mainstream, meaning that it is designed to keep the powers that be from safe from criticism. What happens in Greece is that we're taking loans upon loans to save defaulted banks that are based mainly in Greece, Germany and France. Tax evasion, porsches' and the rest are dirty propaganda designed to hide the crime that's being perpetuated. Saving failed capitalists (mainly banks up to now) by robbing the laymen. As for the tax evasion bit, it's mostly true if we are to speak for a small fraction of the Greek population - namelly the rich and superrich Greeks. All the rest are paying our due for nothing - meaning that our taxes (for me it's about 50% of my gross income) are used to refinance loans and not a single dime goes to roads,health or education. Bear also in mind that for two decades every banks were all over people to persuade them to get loans (sth like the mortgage situation in USA) which were used to buy shit from Germany and France (that's why many say that these countries surplasses are European south deficits). This was evident at a state level too with huge amounts going to buy arms from these two countries. Arms that were of no use. Anyway, this issue is far from simple and what's more you, no matter where you're from, are far from just spectators. What happens in Greece (namely the ripoff of any hind of welfare state + the death of the middle class) is just an experiment to be continued in virtually every western country. It's the way that western capitalism wants to proceed - and bear in mind that what really counts is workers wages (that have been slashed in Greece since the begining of all this crisis) - many big heads waiving their finger have told us Greeks, that the only way to get back to economic development again is to be OK with chinese salaries. We're trying to take that fingers and put them back where they belong and maybe you should try thinking your line of defense against those failed bussinessmen and politicians. A Greek.

angry-hacker 14y ago
Okay, but maybe your living of standard is "chinese wages". What I mean by that much lower standard of living. Why should other countries taxpayers because you don't want to accept the reality?

stefanve 14y ago

The hours worked figure is misleading. in The Netherlands, Germany etc workforce participation rate of women are much higher. But because women tent to work mostly part-time, especially if they have kids, average the number is really low. Also a lot of young family's split this time as both parent's work part time to spend time with the kids. A normal work week is about 40 hours so if you take out 6 weeks for vacation days, sick days etc your left with 1840 hours. I think a more interesting number would be average work time per household I suspect that the list would look differently.

_k 14y ago

We're led to believe the solution to this economic crisis is either getting deeper in debt or more austerity measures (higher taxes, less subsidies) We're led to believe it's either A or B. It's neither A or B for most countries. The truth of the matter is that it's a political problem. We have to reduce the size of the government.

novalis 14y ago
... and jail the corrupt people that hold public office yet act against the citizens in any way. Until that moment in time, nothing good will come out of this and the status quo will just keep on rolling and smashing everyone in its way.

TelmoMenezes 14y ago

I don't know about Greece, but I grew up in Portugal, and I suspect there are some similarities. People in Portugal "work" long hours. But they also work in a very infective way: long useless meetings, everything requires lengthy social interactions, bizantine bureaucracy, too many managers for too few real workers and so on. There are complex cultural problems that cannot be expressed by such simplistic metrics (and that, unfortunately, cannot be solved with quick fixes).

phatbyte 14y ago
As a portuguese also, I totally subscribe this. Hence the reason I don't work in/for Portugal anymore, and I won't until this mentality is gone for good.
iaskwhy 14y ago
I'm also from Portugal but I have been working in London for some time now. Curiously, I don't see much of a difference besides now working only from 9 to 6 instead of working from 9 to 10. Same useless meetings, a very long line for coffee all day long, everyone is a manager, etc. My opinion is a simple one: some countries sell stuff others want, some don't. We were just unlucky and not smart enough to value our geographical position in the world.
- deleted 14y ago
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  - webnographer 14y ago
    German manufacturing is where German productivity is high, not in services.
- webnographer 14y ago
  I have seen many greetideas come from Portugal, the challange is getting the ideas out of the door.You can read here about the start up scene in Lisbon http://squaxor.posterous.com/lisbon-the-startup-spirit http://squaxor.posterous.com/lisbon-the-startup-spirit

kahawe 14y ago

One thing that I always find very unsettling when reading things like that: how Germany is somehow always an epitome of efficiency and productiveness. I am working here and I absolutely do NOT perceive it like that and friends who are also working here confirmed that impression. We are constantly swapping horror-stories of stupid bureaucracy, lengthy extremely bloated processes, having to do things five times, lazy people, stupid people, people who have no idea about their job and no education, tons of stupid "office wars/games" going on, lengthy discussions about very petty things and just for the sake of "but I was actually right" and so on and so forth... The only conclusion is then, it is much much MUCH worse elsewhere? Really?? (Or is this just some sort of "halo effect"?)

f4stjack 14y ago

I don't know about Greece but the statistics in the page are quite disturbing to read. You do long work hours to be more productive, but in the end (probably it has more factors than that but I am simplifying it) it doesn't do you any good so you do overtime, which damages your productivity even more... This is the most damned vicious cycle I've ever seen I think...

vetler 14y ago

Very interesting to see that Norway is the 2nd most productive, but ranks 3rd in fewest hours worked! Makes me feel good about leaving work at four. ;)

gizzlon 14y ago
But what is that number anyway? It's probably just GNP / people. ? Norway will look good in that respect due to the oil.
- vetler 14y ago
  Doesn't say, unfortunately. "They are collected by individual national statistics authorities who each have their own methods of collecting and collating information."
swah 14y ago
OTOH I rather have a flexible work schedule than a strict-but-short one ("you always have to get here at 8 and leave at 4").
- vetler 14y ago
  Oh, we have that too. Just because I chose to get in at 8 this morning, doesn't mean I have to. YMMV, of course, but flexible hours are the norm in the IT industry.

elorant 14y ago

As a Greek I have to admit that this number tells half the truth. The other half is that in terms of productivity Greece is very low. So while we may work a lot more than the average German the quality of the products/services we provide is significantly worse.

nailer 14y ago

As well as the issues other posters have mentioned, the HN title (though not the article) is misleading as the Greek retirement age was 55 until recently. Working 40% longer hours each week, but cutting a decade off your career, does not mean you work 40% longer.

Tichy 14y ago

I heard some of them even hold two full time jobs at the same time, receiving double salary. And that is in government employment, one of the most stressful jobs available in Greece.

aoprisan 14y ago

There is a difference between "working" and working.. "working" in a highly inefficient system is very different than working fewer hours in a more efficient system

balajiviswanath 14y ago

As the 4 columns show, productivity & hours worked go diametrically opposite (negatively correlated). All the countries in the most working list are also in the least productive list. So, it still doesn't change the German assertion that Greeks are not doing enough. Second, the article itself accepts - " because the two labour markets are structured differently, it is actually hard to compare like with like." That means the headline is pointless as it is contradicted by the sentence above.

ck2 14y ago

As I understand it, Greece's problem is the wealthy completely dodge taxes, putting the burden on everyone else (or collapsing the government). It's an idealized version of America's wealthy dream-state.

Uchikoma 14y ago

I'm biased, I'm German. But last year I think there was an article linked that explained how Germans have more productivity output per year than US Americans, although Germans have more holidays. Said that, it's obviously a generalization. I'd think it's very company specific, and depends on many factors, especially the number of "meetings" one has to attend, those that are not work because they have no agenda, no action items, no decisions made etc.

Produce 14y ago

I am not surprised that the most hard working populations are the most unproductive. The mythical man-hour doesn't just apply to software.

JumpCrisscross 14y ago

Facts that reconcile this article with what we already know: 1. The Greek labour market is inefficient. That is why so many people work in small (inefficient) shops. Closed shop regulation for many professions lock people out of high wage occupations. Next to Portugal's 28% high school graduation rate [1] Greece's recent progress (<50% of 25-64 year olds completing high school in 1997 versus 61% today [2]) is valiant but the leaves an uneducated, unproductive generation untouched. It also doesn't account for Greeks' shorter working years. 2. Doing business is tough. Here is an anecdote from a financial commentator in Athens: "My friend explained that the owner of the bookstore/café couldn’t get a license to provide coffee. She had tried to just buy a coffee machine and give the coffee away for free, thinking that lingering patrons would boost book sales. However, giving away coffee was illegal as well. Instead, the owner had to strike a deal with a bar across the street, whereby they make the coffee and the waitress spends all day shuttling between the bar and the bookstore/café. My friend also explained to me that books could not be purchased at the bookstore, as it was after 18h and it is illegal to sell books in Greece beyond that hour. I was in a bookstore/café that could neither sell books nor make coffee." [3] 3. The government used cheap loans not for infrastructure or reform, but to pay public servants and build a military. 4. The government lied about its finances and is depravedly corrupt. [1] http://m.upi.com/m/story/UPI-16361301069117/ http://m.upi.com/m/story/UPI-16361301069117/ [2] http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/21/48657344.pdf http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/21/48657344.pdf [3] http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/36085/ http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/36085/

ctdonath 14y ago
"books could not be purchased at the bookstore, as it was after 18h and it is illegal to sell books in Greece beyond that hour. I was in a bookstore/café that could neither sell books nor make coffee." Unreal. Note that it wasn't that the store was somehow incompetent, it's that doing something as simple & normal as selling a book after 6PM is illegal. Giving away brewed-in-house coffee is illegal. I'm having trouble articulating how profoundly outrageous this is, how self-destructive a country is which not only enacts such regulations but, it seems, tolerates it. If mere sale of a book is prohibited during any hours (much less perfectly reasonable & normal hours), outsiders will find it hard to extend sympathy and aid to a country so keen on destroying its own economy via absurd legislation and citizens so willing to comply. I'm glad to help the needy, but that stops quick when the recipient won't quit obviously self-destructive behavior.

forgotAgain 14y ago

This article would be much more beneficial if it went beyond pointing out inaccuracies in common beliefs, and explained where they came from. As given it simply regurgitates self reported government statistics and provides no insight.

conformal 14y ago

working longer hours != working more or harder. much of the financial problems in .gr (and .it) have occurred because many citizens do not declare the bulk of their income, then, lo and behold, there is insufficient tax revenue to pay for the myriad government services. there are more porsche cayennes in .gr than there are people who declared over EUR 50K income in 2010. based on the fact that .gr has essentially committed long-term fraud with their financials i put absolutely zero stock in any claim that "they're working harder than germany". sure, there are some greeks who work really hard and are productive, but if you've spent any decent amount of time in other countries that border the mediterranean sea you'll notice that their definition of "work" is very different from most people from a less pleasant climate.

dagw 14y ago
there are more porsche cayennes in .gr than there are people who declared over EUR 50K income in 2010 That 'fact' is not only completely untrue, but utterly ridiculous and off by several orders of magnitude. There where over 300000 people declaring of EUR 50k in income in 2010, while Porsche has sold 1500 Cayennes in Greece since launch.

JoachimSchipper 14y ago

Flagged for politics.

jakeonthemove 14y ago

Germans are known for their efficiency, not hard work. Besides, a rested worker is more productive than an overworked one. Germany has got it right. Also, starting a business in Germany is much easier than in Greece - it's on par with the US and UK, while Greece is more restrictive for some reason...

Uchikoma 14y ago
But only recently. It was a nightmare founding a limited 10 years ago (GmbH) when I founded a startup, it's quite easy today when my wife founded a startup (UG). Many Germans founded Ltds in Britain on paper, that made the government see the need to change some laws.

woodpanel 14y ago

When we talk about the shortcomings of Greece we should not forget that Greece was under military dictatorship up until the middle of the 70's (as were Spain and Portugal). And there were several terrorist bombings afterwards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_November http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_N... just to name one of many groups). As a German I'm getting tired of painting the Greeks as lazy. It's rather their country that's in a mess.

junto 14y ago

Greece's problems are predominantly due to state debt, caused by: 1) State Fraud and Corruption: "In early 2010, it was revealed that successive Greek governments had been found to have consistently and deliberately misreported the country's official economic statistics to keep within the monetary union guidelines." 2) Public Tax Evasion: "Greece suffers from very high levels of tax evasion. In the last quarter of 2005, tax evasion reached 49%,[142] while in January 2006 it fell to 41.6%.[142] The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece My personal opinion is that I really don't see why the rest of Europe should bail the Greeks out. They should be booted out of the Euro. > "The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German" Amount of time worked != productivity.

gruseom 14y ago

We keep hearing about the lazy Greeks being bailed out, but isn't it really the banks who lent too much money to Greece who are being bailed out? If the Greeks are so lazy and corrupt, then it was foolish to lend them so much. Why should laziness be punished while foolishness is rewarded? Which poses the greater systemic threat?