3 ms·

"YX Problem" aka "geeksplaining" originated right here on HN 9 years ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10023951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10

by lupire 3y ago

"YX Problem" aka "geeksplaining" originated right here on HN 9 years ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10023951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10023951 Also a few other takes based on that comment. https://csf.github.io/blog/2018/05/01/the-yx-problem/ https://csf.github.io/blog/2018/05/01/the-yx-problem/ https://yxproblem.wordpress.com/ https://yxproblem.wordpress.com/ (SEO ad farming page?)

scj 3y ago
"I'm working with a second-party pre-compiled library and don't have a lot of wiggle room. After careful consideration (of both the library and my other job prospects), I want to do $DUMB_THING. Yes, I know it's dumb, but trust me, $SMART_THING is not an option. Unfortunately, $DUMB_THING is not well documented, because it's legitimately a bad idea, so I was hoping someone could fill in some gaps." If you ever help someone in that situation, know that you are a hero among programmers.
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  Sounds like a classic Beans and Noses thing: https://archive.uie.com/brainsparks/2011/07/08/beans-and-noses/ https://archive.uie.com/brainsparks/2011/07/08/beans-and-nos...
  - theamk 3y ago
    That's great if you can afford to do this. If someone asks, "I've downloaded SUPER SQL EXPLORER PRO how do I connect to prod database so I can add a few columns", then you don't sit back and wait, you take actions fast, including contacting manager and revoking access if needed. In a less extreme situations, you might have a shared task with quick deadline, and someone else went off to the woods instead of making a working design, increasing load on their teammates.
  - scj 3y ago
    I'd say it's more akin to being dealt a bad hand and trying to work through a strategy to play it well. Sure, you'd like to have been dealt a better hand. But you haven't, and dwelling on that won't help anyone. The problem with this metaphor is that it's easy to describe the contents of a hand. But computer programs are a lot more complex than that, and sometimes it's non-trivial (and possibly NDA violating) to describe why the recommended solution isn't feasible.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      > sometimes it's non-trivial (and possibly NDA violating) to describe why the recommended solution isn't feasible. It's not just NDAs. A lot of times people are constrained in what they can do for a reason they're not inclined to admit. This is extremely common with office politics or any kind of corruption. The boss demands X because Y would mean not getting kickbacks from a particular vendor, but she can't tell you this so she has to make up some hogwash. Now you have to go ask someone how to do X, and you know the boss's justification is ridiculous but you also know that you can't list "because the boss has issued a rattlebrained mandate" as the reason in a written communication with your name attached to it, so you have to submit the hogwash as the reason or make up your own. Then the person answering the question points out that the proffered reason for doing it is absurd, which everybody already knows, but nobody can admit it. In large organizations this kind of thing happens so often that people become conditioned to not even question it and just follow orders, and then it happens even when there isn't a hidden underlying reason, because there is now a culture of not questioning stupid decisions.
    - drngdds 3y ago
      And even when you can explain your whole justification for doing Y, it often doesn't help. In my experience, longer your question is, the more likely it is that people will just skim over it and misunderstand it. Or they'll argue against your reasons for doing Y and try to convince you that you really should be doing X anyway.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    That's way too dismissive. It's still assuming XY, but taking a different route to handle it. Often it's not XY, for real.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
      Fair point, but I do enjoy that essay. It’s a classic.
  - antifa 3y ago
    That's a great way to be condescending and unhelpful to someone struggling with an edge-case or wrong-sized feet.
- inhumantsar 3y ago
  I spent 3 hours last night digging into a Linux workstation issue along these lines. the solution was in a comment on a heavily downvoted SO answer. the commenter was (unfortunately, inevitably) shat on by a large number of people but it saved me from giving up on tech to live in a cave the rest of my days. all I could really do was comment with my thanks but that still felt wholly inadequate.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
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plagiarist 3y ago
My favorite is the version where X=!Y, as can often be seen on Stack Overflow when people specify a constraint that some answers just ignore.
inopinatus 3y ago
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a thumb.
brudgers 3y ago
I think it predates HN. This is “What is the XY problem” on Meta-StackExchange from 2010: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/66377/what-is-the-xy-problem https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/66377/what-is-the-x... The top answer links to this wiki page that goes back to 2006: https://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem https://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem First revision here: https://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem?action=diff&rev1=1&rev2=2 https://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem?action=diff&rev1=1&rev...
- rezonant 3y ago
  It might predate HN but you are looking at the XY problem, not the YX problem. In this case, they are not commutative.
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    It seems that the YX problem is a derivative of the XY problem. In both cases we solve for X.
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      > seems If you're actually unsure, then be sure. It's a derivative.
      - dotancohen 3y ago
        It's a play on words.
        Dylan16807 3y ago
        Can you explain it? I don't get it. I mean, I see how "derivative" could be wordplay, but I don't see how "seems" is wordplay.
  - brudgers 3y ago
    Yes the YX problem has a YX problem.
joshu 3y ago
it didn’t originate here. i remember it being used on IRC #perl and years before this. here is an example from 23 years ago: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.perl.misc/c/rCCGCpipjH0/m/TBQOCAT9154J https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.perl.misc/c/rCCGCpipjH...
- rezonant 3y ago
  That's the XY problem. This is about the YX problem.
ShamelessC 3y ago
Why did you think that was the first usage? The conversation linked even implies they’re referring to a previously known concept - no one said “I call this the “YX problem”. Merely reiterated a common cultural touchstone.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  > no one said “I call this the “YX problem” Right, they said "What would you call [it], the YX Problem?" Is there a meaningful difference as far as coining a term? The idea of "what if this phenomenon happens in reverse" existed, but adding a name isn't nothing.

by lupire 3y ago

scj 3y ago

"I'm working with a second-party pre-compiled library and don't have a lot of wiggle room. After careful consideration (of both the library and my other job prospects), I want to do $DUMB_THING. Yes, I know it's dumb, but trust me, $SMART_THING is not an option. Unfortunately, $DUMB_THING is not well documented, because it's legitimately a bad idea, so I was hoping someone could fill in some gaps." If you ever help someone in that situation, know that you are a hero among programmers.

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
Sounds like a classic Beans and Noses thing: https://archive.uie.com/brainsparks/2011/07/08/beans-and-noses/ https://archive.uie.com/brainsparks/2011/07/08/beans-and-nos...
- theamk 3y ago
  That's great if you can afford to do this. If someone asks, "I've downloaded SUPER SQL EXPLORER PRO how do I connect to prod database so I can add a few columns", then you don't sit back and wait, you take actions fast, including contacting manager and revoking access if needed. In a less extreme situations, you might have a shared task with quick deadline, and someone else went off to the woods instead of making a working design, increasing load on their teammates.
- scj 3y ago
  I'd say it's more akin to being dealt a bad hand and trying to work through a strategy to play it well. Sure, you'd like to have been dealt a better hand. But you haven't, and dwelling on that won't help anyone. The problem with this metaphor is that it's easy to describe the contents of a hand. But computer programs are a lot more complex than that, and sometimes it's non-trivial (and possibly NDA violating) to describe why the recommended solution isn't feasible.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > sometimes it's non-trivial (and possibly NDA violating) to describe why the recommended solution isn't feasible. It's not just NDAs. A lot of times people are constrained in what they can do for a reason they're not inclined to admit. This is extremely common with office politics or any kind of corruption. The boss demands X because Y would mean not getting kickbacks from a particular vendor, but she can't tell you this so she has to make up some hogwash. Now you have to go ask someone how to do X, and you know the boss's justification is ridiculous but you also know that you can't list "because the boss has issued a rattlebrained mandate" as the reason in a written communication with your name attached to it, so you have to submit the hogwash as the reason or make up your own. Then the person answering the question points out that the proffered reason for doing it is absurd, which everybody already knows, but nobody can admit it. In large organizations this kind of thing happens so often that people become conditioned to not even question it and just follow orders, and then it happens even when there isn't a hidden underlying reason, because there is now a culture of not questioning stupid decisions.
  - drngdds 3y ago
    And even when you can explain your whole justification for doing Y, it often doesn't help. In my experience, longer your question is, the more likely it is that people will just skim over it and misunderstand it. Or they'll argue against your reasons for doing Y and try to convince you that you really should be doing X anyway.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  That's way too dismissive. It's still assuming XY, but taking a different route to handle it. Often it's not XY, for real.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    Fair point, but I do enjoy that essay. It’s a classic.
- antifa 3y ago
  That's a great way to be condescending and unhelpful to someone struggling with an edge-case or wrong-sized feet.
inhumantsar 3y ago
I spent 3 hours last night digging into a Linux workstation issue along these lines. the solution was in a comment on a heavily downvoted SO answer. the commenter was (unfortunately, inevitably) shat on by a large number of people but it saved me from giving up on tech to live in a cave the rest of my days. all I could really do was comment with my thanks but that still felt wholly inadequate.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

plagiarist 3y ago

My favorite is the version where X=!Y, as can often be seen on Stack Overflow when people specify a constraint that some answers just ignore.

inopinatus 3y ago

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a thumb.

brudgers 3y ago

I think it predates HN. This is “What is the XY problem” on Meta-StackExchange from 2010: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/66377/what-is-the-xy-problem https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/66377/what-is-the-x... The top answer links to this wiki page that goes back to 2006: https://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem https://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem First revision here: https://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem?action=diff&rev1=1&rev2=2 https://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem?action=diff&rev1=1&rev...

rezonant 3y ago
It might predate HN but you are looking at the XY problem, not the YX problem. In this case, they are not commutative.
- dotancohen 3y ago
  It seems that the YX problem is a derivative of the XY problem. In both cases we solve for X.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    > seems If you're actually unsure, then be sure. It's a derivative.
    - dotancohen 3y ago
      It's a play on words.
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        Can you explain it? I don't get it. I mean, I see how "derivative" could be wordplay, but I don't see how "seems" is wordplay.
- brudgers 3y ago
  Yes the YX problem has a YX problem.

joshu 3y ago

it didn’t originate here. i remember it being used on IRC #perl and years before this. here is an example from 23 years ago: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.perl.misc/c/rCCGCpipjH0/m/TBQOCAT9154J https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.perl.misc/c/rCCGCpipjH...

rezonant 3y ago
That's the XY problem. This is about the YX problem.

ShamelessC 3y ago

Why did you think that was the first usage? The conversation linked even implies they’re referring to a previously known concept - no one said “I call this the “YX problem”. Merely reiterated a common cultural touchstone.

Dylan16807 3y ago
> no one said “I call this the “YX problem” Right, they said "What would you call [it], the YX Problem?" Is there a meaningful difference as far as coining a term? The idea of "what if this phenomenon happens in reverse" existed, but adding a name isn't nothing.