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I did feel a disadvantage myself when I was job searching a few months ago, but for me it was my personal attitude coming through more than anyone judging me by

I did feel a disadvantage myself when I was job searching a few months ago, but for me it was my personal attitude coming through more than anyone judging me by my age. I felt that I just cannot get excited anymore about some of the bullshit the company leadership is throwing around, and neither could I overlook the massive mistakes the companies are making based on my own interview questions. But I do understand that a very small minority of these companies will actually succeed regardless of the nonsense. Otherwise the venture capital logic does not work. Also my pay expectations were higher than most junior employees, cause I have a mortgage, family, etc. and I can see how it might be hard to justify paying for my experience when you're building yet another standard webapp. Luckily for me, I was able to find a spot with experienced leadership building something actually new.

7thaccount 3y ago
Lol. Yeah once you've heard the HR hype a few times you know how hollow it is and just want to fast forward past it. Glad you found what you need.
ttyprintk 3y ago
This. Interviewers and executives are often younger than me. I never make the claim that I’ve seen this or that mistake being made before. If I need to inject something, I say “anyone read [that book on JAX]” or “happy to help setup a long-term Kanban for Kubernetes if we go that way”.
- mech422 3y ago
  Heh - most are younger then me as well ... I had an interviewer about 15 years younger then me ask "what was the most important thing I learned about DevOps"... my reply was "dont deploy on Friday" :-) I got the job (and a chuckle) :-D
  - annoyingnoob 3y ago
    I used to work for someone that LOVED to deploy on Fridays. She would make us all stay late if whatever she wanted to finish this week was not done yet. So many 7pm on Friday deployments, ick.
    - mech422 3y ago
      Ugggh - that sucks...I feel for ya :-/ That sounds less like 'deployment' and more like 'mandatory overtime' at that point!
    - HumblyTossed 3y ago
      That's toxic. Unless there is a specific business reason to deploy on Friday, don't deploy on Friday.
gosub100 3y ago
I've had a similar attitude issue, not due to lack of excitement but just being more blunt, assertive, and fearless than I was as a junior. I'm not a total jerk completely missing a verbal filter, but I definitely have a shorter fuse and ended up getting let go last year for being rough with an inept coworker (politics were against me as a consultant too). I guess I need to cage my rage a little bit.
- adr1an 3y ago
  Or, you can blow some steam with a sport. Repressing feelings can turn to be for worse (yeah, it's cliche to say it but not less truthful)
- jasondigitized 3y ago
  This. A lot of younger folks confuse assertiveness with being confrontational. I made a tactful suggestion that maybe our agendas are too full because we start every meeting ten minutes late. That was too confrontational according to my boss. Lol. I just can’t be quiet when table stakes stuff like this is happening.
- ilaksh 3y ago
  I don't think it's a cut and dry issue. Many, if not most jobs/contracts put you in a very awkward position of dealing with something or someone who is incompetent, unfair, etc. I don't see a normal human reaction to that as being a personal or professional failure. It's unfortunate, but I think that rather than necessarily just being better at suppressing your natural reactions, the takeaway might be to try harder to get better colleagues. Easier said than done though.
outside1234 3y ago
Yes - this. I can't just forget all of the wisdom I've gained over the years and throw myself into another meat grinder.
flashgordon 3y ago
Damn how and where are you actually finding employers like these? In the bay area you are pretty much SoL and moving is not an option.
mech422 3y ago
Yeah - I have 40+ yoe, and I could see a lot of places don't need a 'senior'.. they just need a couple more junior coders. Also, you tend to get a bit jaded - I basically ignore companies that are going 'to change the world!!!' :-P I broke my own rule and went to a startup that actually seems to have a useful product, rather then just big dreams...
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  Frustrating for everyone on board. Juniors don't get the training and experience they need to progress, Seniors don't get the compensation they deserve, and wizards are just having their time wasted when they get called and hear a salary that they probably made 20 years prior. I guess it works, or the cost to do all that is low, otherwise so many places wouldn't do it.
  - mech422 3y ago
    I guess... I can see everyone thinks they're company is special and needs 'rock stars' and '10x's but generally 1 senior for every 5-10 juniors is fine for most places. The salary thing is annoying - for a while it seemed like most jobs were listing salaries because of CA/CO/MA requiring it. But it seems to be going back to the old "D.O.E" thing again :-/
    - ElevenLathe 3y ago
      1 senior for 10 juniors is not a sustainable ratio unless the average person is a senior for 10x as long as they were a junior -- meaning, I guess, that in a 30 year career, you are "junior" for three years on average. I understand that this has been "sustainable" in the past because the industry was expanding, but can that continue forever?
      - mech422 3y ago
        I always figured 3-5 years to become a 'senior' (generally 5 but I've had some really sharp juniors too)
jghn 3y ago
I say this as a greybeard myself, but as someone who been on the interviewer/hiring manager side of quite a few interviews with older candidates, it's a lot more common than they realize that they're just *bad*. Yes, there are many good ones, and yes the wisdom they have is a huge benefit. But plenty of them think this applies to them when it does not. The most common issue is they've long since let themselves go technically. They've been flexing the same 2 or 3 muscles for ages, and let everything else atrophy. They haven't been staying abreast of current changes, and by that I don't mean jumping on the latest fad but rather knowing that the fads exist. So it winds up being the case that they have few useful/transferable skills and their "wisdom" really isn't all that useful outside of the exact niche they'd found themselves in for decades. And then another large chunk of them wind up being jerks. I've been this person myself. Whether it being standoffish, crapping over what the company is doing without a full understanding of why they're doing it, or even just clearly being defensive about ageism. My point isn't to dump on older candidates. Again, I sometimes am one :) But as is often the case, plenty of older candidates refuse to look in the mirror.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >or even just clearly being defensive about ageism. I mean, that makes sense? I would be just as defensive about racism or sexism if the vibe came off in an interview. >They haven't been staying abreast of current changes, and by that I don't mean jumping on the latest fad but rather knowing that the fads exist. I guess it depends on the domain. Sure, I can see web moving fast and the someone who focused on at best JQuery may not be needed for a company on Vue or React or whatever. Other domains don't change as radically though, or the tools are usually not as hard to transfer to as some think. People can underestimate the fundamentals at times as they try to expect 10 years of Swift experience out of a candidate.
  - jghn 3y ago
    The actual technologies matter less, and I'm not talking about "the fundamentals". It's more that they tend to have only been doing the exact small set of things for a long period of time. When I've hired such people much more often than not they struggle to learn, because they're no longer used to learning. And much like I said the prior as a fellow greybeard, I'm saying this as someone who is much more cavalier than most people I've met about not expecting an exact set of skills. That said, I've noticed patterns of candidates who really struggle to catch up on their missing skills and this is one of them. EDIT: to clarify a bit, the archetype I'm talking about are people who have pretty much turned off their brain and been on autopilot for 10, 20, or more years. It's not a problem if they're using a "dated" technology or whatever, it's a problem that they've been operating on rote muscle memory for ages. There are absolutely people who are using the dated technologies who don't fall into this trap.
Justsignedup 3y ago
That's my big challenge, I want to get the money for the experience I bring, but ultimately companies don't see it that way. Just more bets I can't really afford to take. :(

7thaccount 3y ago

Lol. Yeah once you've heard the HR hype a few times you know how hollow it is and just want to fast forward past it. Glad you found what you need.

ttyprintk 3y ago

This. Interviewers and executives are often younger than me. I never make the claim that I’ve seen this or that mistake being made before. If I need to inject something, I say “anyone read [that book on JAX]” or “happy to help setup a long-term Kanban for Kubernetes if we go that way”.

mech422 3y ago
Heh - most are younger then me as well ... I had an interviewer about 15 years younger then me ask "what was the most important thing I learned about DevOps"... my reply was "dont deploy on Friday" :-) I got the job (and a chuckle) :-D
- annoyingnoob 3y ago
  I used to work for someone that LOVED to deploy on Fridays. She would make us all stay late if whatever she wanted to finish this week was not done yet. So many 7pm on Friday deployments, ick.
  - mech422 3y ago
    Ugggh - that sucks...I feel for ya :-/ That sounds less like 'deployment' and more like 'mandatory overtime' at that point!
  - HumblyTossed 3y ago
    That's toxic. Unless there is a specific business reason to deploy on Friday, don't deploy on Friday.

gosub100 3y ago

I've had a similar attitude issue, not due to lack of excitement but just being more blunt, assertive, and fearless than I was as a junior. I'm not a total jerk completely missing a verbal filter, but I definitely have a shorter fuse and ended up getting let go last year for being rough with an inept coworker (politics were against me as a consultant too). I guess I need to cage my rage a little bit.

adr1an 3y ago
Or, you can blow some steam with a sport. Repressing feelings can turn to be for worse (yeah, it's cliche to say it but not less truthful)
jasondigitized 3y ago
This. A lot of younger folks confuse assertiveness with being confrontational. I made a tactful suggestion that maybe our agendas are too full because we start every meeting ten minutes late. That was too confrontational according to my boss. Lol. I just can’t be quiet when table stakes stuff like this is happening.
ilaksh 3y ago
I don't think it's a cut and dry issue. Many, if not most jobs/contracts put you in a very awkward position of dealing with something or someone who is incompetent, unfair, etc. I don't see a normal human reaction to that as being a personal or professional failure. It's unfortunate, but I think that rather than necessarily just being better at suppressing your natural reactions, the takeaway might be to try harder to get better colleagues. Easier said than done though.

outside1234 3y ago

Yes - this. I can't just forget all of the wisdom I've gained over the years and throw myself into another meat grinder.

flashgordon 3y ago

Damn how and where are you actually finding employers like these? In the bay area you are pretty much SoL and moving is not an option.

mech422 3y ago

Yeah - I have 40+ yoe, and I could see a lot of places don't need a 'senior'.. they just need a couple more junior coders. Also, you tend to get a bit jaded - I basically ignore companies that are going 'to change the world!!!' :-P I broke my own rule and went to a startup that actually seems to have a useful product, rather then just big dreams...

johnnyanmac 3y ago
Frustrating for everyone on board. Juniors don't get the training and experience they need to progress, Seniors don't get the compensation they deserve, and wizards are just having their time wasted when they get called and hear a salary that they probably made 20 years prior. I guess it works, or the cost to do all that is low, otherwise so many places wouldn't do it.
- mech422 3y ago
  I guess... I can see everyone thinks they're company is special and needs 'rock stars' and '10x's but generally 1 senior for every 5-10 juniors is fine for most places. The salary thing is annoying - for a while it seemed like most jobs were listing salaries because of CA/CO/MA requiring it. But it seems to be going back to the old "D.O.E" thing again :-/
  - ElevenLathe 3y ago
    1 senior for 10 juniors is not a sustainable ratio unless the average person is a senior for 10x as long as they were a junior -- meaning, I guess, that in a 30 year career, you are "junior" for three years on average. I understand that this has been "sustainable" in the past because the industry was expanding, but can that continue forever?
    - mech422 3y ago
      I always figured 3-5 years to become a 'senior' (generally 5 but I've had some really sharp juniors too)

jghn 3y ago

I say this as a greybeard myself, but as someone who been on the interviewer/hiring manager side of quite a few interviews with older candidates, it's a lot more common than they realize that they're just *bad*. Yes, there are many good ones, and yes the wisdom they have is a huge benefit. But plenty of them think this applies to them when it does not. The most common issue is they've long since let themselves go technically. They've been flexing the same 2 or 3 muscles for ages, and let everything else atrophy. They haven't been staying abreast of current changes, and by that I don't mean jumping on the latest fad but rather knowing that the fads exist. So it winds up being the case that they have few useful/transferable skills and their "wisdom" really isn't all that useful outside of the exact niche they'd found themselves in for decades. And then another large chunk of them wind up being jerks. I've been this person myself. Whether it being standoffish, crapping over what the company is doing without a full understanding of why they're doing it, or even just clearly being defensive about ageism. My point isn't to dump on older candidates. Again, I sometimes am one :) But as is often the case, plenty of older candidates refuse to look in the mirror.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
>or even just clearly being defensive about ageism. I mean, that makes sense? I would be just as defensive about racism or sexism if the vibe came off in an interview. >They haven't been staying abreast of current changes, and by that I don't mean jumping on the latest fad but rather knowing that the fads exist. I guess it depends on the domain. Sure, I can see web moving fast and the someone who focused on at best JQuery may not be needed for a company on Vue or React or whatever. Other domains don't change as radically though, or the tools are usually not as hard to transfer to as some think. People can underestimate the fundamentals at times as they try to expect 10 years of Swift experience out of a candidate.
- jghn 3y ago
  The actual technologies matter less, and I'm not talking about "the fundamentals". It's more that they tend to have only been doing the exact small set of things for a long period of time. When I've hired such people much more often than not they struggle to learn, because they're no longer used to learning. And much like I said the prior as a fellow greybeard, I'm saying this as someone who is much more cavalier than most people I've met about not expecting an exact set of skills. That said, I've noticed patterns of candidates who really struggle to catch up on their missing skills and this is one of them. EDIT: to clarify a bit, the archetype I'm talking about are people who have pretty much turned off their brain and been on autopilot for 10, 20, or more years. It's not a problem if they're using a "dated" technology or whatever, it's a problem that they've been operating on rote muscle memory for ages. There are absolutely people who are using the dated technologies who don't fall into this trap.

Justsignedup 3y ago

That's my big challenge, I want to get the money for the experience I bring, but ultimately companies don't see it that way. Just more bets I can't really afford to take. :(