6 ms·

You say this as if it is established fact, but there has been no RCT convincingly showing the effect you are describing - typically called "source control" - ca

by jMyles 3y ago

You say this as if it is established fact, but there has been no RCT convincingly showing the effect you are describing - typically called "source control" - can be achieved from the use of a respirator to interdict individual transmission. In fact, no RCT powered for such a finding has even been attempted to my knowledge (though I haven't combed through the research in the past couple months or so - link me if I'm out of date!). It has also not been demonstrated that source control can be used to reduce community transmission (though I realize that your point is not about community transmission). The reasons for not funding / performing such a RCT continue to astound - the demagoguery of comparing masks to parachutes notwithstanding.

autoexec 3y ago
You should probably read this: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/masks-work-distorting-science-to-dispute-the-evidence-doesnt/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/masks-work-distor... More if you're interested: https://www.statnews.com/2023/05/02/do-masks-work-rcts-randomized-controlled-trials/ https://www.statnews.com/2023/05/02/do-masks-work-rcts-rando... https://www.acsh.org/news/2023/03/14/do-masks-prevent-covid-spoiler-alert-course-they-do-16915 https://www.acsh.org/news/2023/03/14/do-masks-prevent-covid-... The tl;dr is this: Randomized controlled trials are simply not the appropriate tool for the job and we've got a mountain of other evidence already.
- jMyles 3y ago
  ...this link is not a new RCT. It is an article about the Cochrane review which we all read a long time ago. And, despite the (somewhat reasonable) chagrin expressed by the authors, the Cochrane review did indeed show that masks are largely ineffective (and cloth masks, completely so) at stopping viral transmission - the link is right there in the article to which you've linked. What we need are sober, old-school RCTs powered to assess both filtration and source control across individuals (and sure, some for community transmission as well). And then we need them replicated. And then we can finally stop this ridiculous 'debate'. Today's humans are the most scientifically literate society in history; there's no reason we need to make important social and political decisions with such shitty data.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    > the Cochrane review did indeed show that masks are largely ineffective (and cloth masks, completely so) at stopping viral transmission - the link is right there in the article to which you've linked. That's actually not what it showed. That bit of misinformation is probably best addressed in another article (https://www.acsh.org/news/2023/03/14/do-masks-prevent-covid-spoiler-alert-course-they-do-16915 https://www.acsh.org/news/2023/03/14/do-masks-prevent-covid-...) Here's the most important part: Many commentators have claimed that a recently updated Cochrane review shows that ‘masks don’t work,’ which is an inaccurate and misleading interpretation,” Karla Soares-Weiser, the editor in chief of the Cochrane Library, said in a statement. “The review examined whether interventions to promote mask wearing help to slow the spread of respiratory viruses,” Soares-Weiser said, adding, “Given the limitations in the primary evidence, the review is not able to address the question of whether mask wearing itself reduces people’s risk of contracting or spreading respiratory viruses.” She said that “this wording was open to misinterpretation, for which we apologize,” and that Cochrane would revise the summary. Soares-Weiser also said, though, that one of the lead authors of the review even more seriously misinterpreted its finding on masks by saying in an interview that it proved “there is just no evidence that they make any difference.” In fact, Soares-Weiser said, “that statement is not an accurate representation of what the review found.”
    - gadders 3y ago
      You are guilty of pushing the very misinformation that you claim to be against. The review itself said: ‘Wearing masks in the community probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of influenza‐like illness / Covid‐19-like illness compared with not wearing masks… Wearing masks in the community probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of laboratory‐confirmed influenza / SARS‐CoV‐2 compared with not wearing masks.’ The fact that the editor-in-chief of Cochrane embarrassed herself due to the pressure of an opinion-piece by a non-expert in the NYT is irrelevant. You can read the views of one of the reports actual authors here: https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/07/19/the-junk-science-behind-face-masks/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/07/19/the-junk-science-be...
      - 3y ago
toss1 3y ago
RCT is unlikely to be a good tool to determine the effectiveness of masks, if for no other reason, compliance is marginal at best (how do you recognize &record every instance when someone pulls it down for a short time exposing their nose or both airways?). Perhaps the best evidence that even badly used masks are effective is that measures such a using masks for a year killed every instance of a strain of flu - deas, gone, extinct. Just by reducing the R0 value to the point where there were no survivors. (but not enough that more virulent COVID-19 strains couldn't survive). Masks, particularly N95-level, work. Period. Not perfectly, nothing does. But they work. Regardless of any FUD you may want to spread.
- s1gnp0st 3y ago
  Let's wear them forever then. You first.
  - toss1 3y ago
    Yes, it should be strongly encouraged in crowded places, not discouraged. As to "You First", I still do avoid random crowds and I wear an N95 when I do go out in random crowds, including the last time I went to the grocery store. I'm not the only one I see doing that ('tho it is far less common than a year ago). But sure, you do you, because evidently your approach to life prioritizes your immediate gratification, and doing nothing that might help the general welfare, or help everyone (even you) in the longer term.
    - s1gnp0st 3y ago
      I am disgusted by the totalitarian urge which has been normalized by the pandemic. Your trauma is not my problem, and I will not permanently alter my behavior to satisfy your ever-escalating urge to dominate me.
      - jMyles 3y ago
        Well put. Though I suspect that the overwhelming majority of the sentiment to which you are referring is being carried by bots and not real humans. It's a difficult time to be empirically-driven, though hopefully we will come out better for it.

by jMyles 3y ago

autoexec 3y ago

You should probably read this: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/masks-work-distorting-science-to-dispute-the-evidence-doesnt/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/masks-work-distor... More if you're interested: https://www.statnews.com/2023/05/02/do-masks-work-rcts-randomized-controlled-trials/ https://www.statnews.com/2023/05/02/do-masks-work-rcts-rando... https://www.acsh.org/news/2023/03/14/do-masks-prevent-covid-spoiler-alert-course-they-do-16915 https://www.acsh.org/news/2023/03/14/do-masks-prevent-covid-... The tl;dr is this: Randomized controlled trials are simply not the appropriate tool for the job and we've got a mountain of other evidence already.

jMyles 3y ago
...this link is not a new RCT. It is an article about the Cochrane review which we all read a long time ago. And, despite the (somewhat reasonable) chagrin expressed by the authors, the Cochrane review did indeed show that masks are largely ineffective (and cloth masks, completely so) at stopping viral transmission - the link is right there in the article to which you've linked. What we need are sober, old-school RCTs powered to assess both filtration and source control across individuals (and sure, some for community transmission as well). And then we need them replicated. And then we can finally stop this ridiculous 'debate'. Today's humans are the most scientifically literate society in history; there's no reason we need to make important social and political decisions with such shitty data.
- autoexec 3y ago
  > the Cochrane review did indeed show that masks are largely ineffective (and cloth masks, completely so) at stopping viral transmission - the link is right there in the article to which you've linked. That's actually not what it showed. That bit of misinformation is probably best addressed in another article (https://www.acsh.org/news/2023/03/14/do-masks-prevent-covid-spoiler-alert-course-they-do-16915 https://www.acsh.org/news/2023/03/14/do-masks-prevent-covid-...) Here's the most important part: Many commentators have claimed that a recently updated Cochrane review shows that ‘masks don’t work,’ which is an inaccurate and misleading interpretation,” Karla Soares-Weiser, the editor in chief of the Cochrane Library, said in a statement. “The review examined whether interventions to promote mask wearing help to slow the spread of respiratory viruses,” Soares-Weiser said, adding, “Given the limitations in the primary evidence, the review is not able to address the question of whether mask wearing itself reduces people’s risk of contracting or spreading respiratory viruses.” She said that “this wording was open to misinterpretation, for which we apologize,” and that Cochrane would revise the summary. Soares-Weiser also said, though, that one of the lead authors of the review even more seriously misinterpreted its finding on masks by saying in an interview that it proved “there is just no evidence that they make any difference.” In fact, Soares-Weiser said, “that statement is not an accurate representation of what the review found.”
  - gadders 3y ago
    You are guilty of pushing the very misinformation that you claim to be against. The review itself said: ‘Wearing masks in the community probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of influenza‐like illness / Covid‐19-like illness compared with not wearing masks… Wearing masks in the community probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of laboratory‐confirmed influenza / SARS‐CoV‐2 compared with not wearing masks.’ The fact that the editor-in-chief of Cochrane embarrassed herself due to the pressure of an opinion-piece by a non-expert in the NYT is irrelevant. You can read the views of one of the reports actual authors here: https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/07/19/the-junk-science-behind-face-masks/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/07/19/the-junk-science-be...
    - 3y ago

toss1 3y ago

RCT is unlikely to be a good tool to determine the effectiveness of masks, if for no other reason, compliance is marginal at best (how do you recognize &record every instance when someone pulls it down for a short time exposing their nose or both airways?). Perhaps the best evidence that even badly used masks are effective is that measures such a using masks for a year killed every instance of a strain of flu - deas, gone, extinct. Just by reducing the R0 value to the point where there were no survivors. (but not enough that more virulent COVID-19 strains couldn't survive). Masks, particularly N95-level, work. Period. Not perfectly, nothing does. But they work. Regardless of any FUD you may want to spread.

s1gnp0st 3y ago
Let's wear them forever then. You first.
- toss1 3y ago
  Yes, it should be strongly encouraged in crowded places, not discouraged. As to "You First", I still do avoid random crowds and I wear an N95 when I do go out in random crowds, including the last time I went to the grocery store. I'm not the only one I see doing that ('tho it is far less common than a year ago). But sure, you do you, because evidently your approach to life prioritizes your immediate gratification, and doing nothing that might help the general welfare, or help everyone (even you) in the longer term.
  - s1gnp0st 3y ago
    I am disgusted by the totalitarian urge which has been normalized by the pandemic. Your trauma is not my problem, and I will not permanently alter my behavior to satisfy your ever-escalating urge to dominate me.
    - jMyles 3y ago
      Well put. Though I suspect that the overwhelming majority of the sentiment to which you are referring is being carried by bots and not real humans. It's a difficult time to be empirically-driven, though hopefully we will come out better for it.